Alvarez to Philly

[AngelsFaninGA]

1 hour ago, totdprods said:

Let's all remember J.C. Ramirez and how poor he was before the Angels got him.
Big-bodied, hard throwing righthanders.

J.C., pre-Angels career vs. Angels career
6.39 ERA in 80 innings vs. 4.04 ERA in 200 IP
5.79 FIP vs 4.82 FIP
H9 of 10.1 vs. 8.9
HR9 of 1.8 vs. 1.3 
BB9 of 4.5 vs. 3.1
K9 of 6.4 vs. 6.3
-1.6 WAR vs 2 WAR
 

I don't really follow this. There's no indication that we, or anyone, can consistently pick out bad relievers and make them good. I don't see what relevance Ramirez has, especially since we now have a difference coaching staff on top of that. The bullpen was bad last year and the solution seems to be to double down even further on the strategy that hasn't been working by dumping two of our better relievers (Parker and Alvarez)

[SlappyUtilityMIF]

There is always a silver lining!....What I've read within this thread. Same money, great beard, throws hard, better during odd numbered seasons, even years he's dogshit.

Does that cover it?....

[totdprods]

1 minute ago, AngelsFaninGA said:

I don't really follow this. There's no indication that we, or anyone, can consistently pick out bad relievers and make them good. I don't see what relevance Ramirez has, especially since we now have a difference coaching staff on top of that. The bullpen was bad last year and the solution seems to be to double down even further on the strategy that hasn't been working by dumping two of our better relievers (Parker and Alvarez)

...what? And it may be different coaches, but it's the same front office, utilizing the same philosophies, analytics, and data.

Bud Norris, Taylor Cole, David Hernandez, Parker Bridwell, Yusmeiro Petit, J.C. Ramirez, Felix Pena, Hansel Robles, Deolis Guerra, Blake Parker, sort of Kirby Yates and Justin Anderson, Alex Meyer, Andrew Bailey,  reliever Jesse Chavez, sort of Noe Ramirez, Blake Wood, even Fernando Salas' return all are examples of mediocre or declining pitchers who came through Eppler's Angels and reversed course.

[TroutField]

5 minutes ago, SlappyUtilityMIF said:

There is always a silver lining!....What I've read from this thread. Money same, great beard, throws hard, better during odd numbered seasons, even years he's dogshit.

Does that cover it?....

Bingo

[SlappyUtilityMIF]

23 minutes ago, totdprods said:

...what? And it may be different coaches, but it's the same front office, utilizing the same philosophies, analytics, and data.

Bud Norris, Taylor Cole, David Hernandez, Parker Bridwell, Yusmeiro Petit, J.C. Ramirez, Felix Pena, Hansel Robles, Deolis Guerra, Blake Parker, sort of Kirby Yates and Justin Anderson, Alex Meyer, Andrew Bailey,  reliever Jesse Chavez, sort of Noe Ramirez, Blake Wood, even Fernando Salas' return all are examples of mediocre or declining pitchers who came through Eppler's Angels and reversed course.

Meyer, Bailey, Wood, Guerra and Chavez were dogshit. Salas had his days, but, overall gave up ass.

Ramirez and Pena converted to starters with varying overall results meaning. Better, than dogshit, at least they were healthy for the duration of their 1st season post conversion. Ramirez usually had the one bad inning rule where he would give up a couple solo bombs. Pena seemed like a hard luck starter that rarely received offensive support or was done in by the bullpen. 

Overall, more than half were parts that had ability but needed the opportunity to put something together. It helped us as they were inexpensive options.

[fan_since79]

Trading our decent relievers for guys I've never heard of.

Welcome to a typical Angels offseason.

 

[totdprods]

19 minutes ago, SlappyUtilityMIF said:

Meyer, Bailey, Wood, Guerra and Chavez were dogshit. Salas had his days, but, overall gave up ass.

Ramirez and Pena converted to starters with varying overall results meaning. Better, than dogshit, at least they were healthy for the duration of their 1st season post conversion. Ramirez usually had the one bad inning rule where he would give up a couple solo bombs. Pena seemed like a hard luck starter that rarely received offensive support or was done in by the bullpen. 

Overall, more than half were parts that had ability but needed the opportunity to put something together. It helped us as they were inexpensive options.

Meyer: 14.21 ERA prior to Angels in limited appearances, gave the Angels 18 GS of 3.94 ERA ball. Dogshit how? Injuries limited him, but he was better here than ever.
Bailey: limited by injury, but posted 1.76 ERA (3.28 FIP) in 16 games. Not dogshit.
Wood: injuries limited his time, ERA near 5.00 in ~250 games before Angels, 3.77 ERA as an Angel, with a K/9 increase to from 8.6 to 10, BB/9 decrease from 6.7 to 3.5
Guerra: 3.68 ERA in nearly 80 innings
Chavez: was badass in relief as an Angel, minus 3 games (small sample size), and carried that success in the pen since.
Salas: 2.0: 2.63 ERA, 2.28 FIP, 0.659 WHIP in 13 games

Ramirez, Bridwell, and Pena were scrub relievers who combined to give us exactly 64 GS - full spots in the rotation - of 4.17 ball. 
Andrew Heaney's career so far is 61 G, 4.35 ERA.
That's pretty good for three dudes who cost league-minimum and cost nothing but waiver claims.

Obviously we all could have hoped for more from these guys, but if Eppler has any track record going for him, it's making the most of crappy pitchers. 
Numerous examples of guys who were dogshit coming here, and at least giving us league-average (if not more) indicates there's some hope for Luis Garcia.

[AngelsFaninGA]

31 minutes ago, totdprods said:

Meyer: 14.21 ERA prior to Angels in limited appearances, gave the Angels 18 GS of 3.94 ERA ball. Dogshit how? Injuries limited him, but he was better here than ever.
Bailey: limited by injury, but posted 1.76 ERA (3.28 FIP) in 16 games. Not dogshit.
Wood: injuries limited his time, ERA near 5.00 in ~250 games before Angels, 3.77 ERA as an Angel, with a K/9 increase to from 8.6 to 10, BB/9 decrease from 6.7 to 3.5
Guerra: 3.68 ERA in nearly 80 innings
Chavez: was badass in relief as an Angel, minus 3 games (small sample size), and carried that success in the pen since.
Salas: 2.0: 2.63 ERA, 2.28 FIP, 0.659 WHIP in 13 games

Ramirez, Bridwell, and Pena were scrub relievers who combined to give us exactly 64 GS - full spots in the rotation - of 4.17 ball. 
Andrew Heaney's career so far is 61 G, 4.35 ERA.
That's pretty good for three dudes who cost league-minimum and cost nothing but waiver claims.

Obviously we all could have hoped for more from these guys, but if Eppler has any track record going for him, it's making the most of crappy pitchers. 
Numerous examples of guys who were dogshit coming here, and at least giving us league-average (if not more) indicates there's some hope for Luis Garcia.

And at the end of the day, we still finished only 13th in bullpen ERA, and that's skewed because the bullpen only really got better at the end of the season once we were out of contention and the pressure was off. That's the problem with this strategy, even if a ton of things break right, your upside is still mediocrity because you still have guys like Johnson and flops like Drake, Bard, Morris, Noe, Jerez, etc on the other end of the spectrum. That's not gonna get you to the playoffs. At some point we need players who are actually good and not just better than garbage. We're not the A's or Rays. 

[Angel Oracle]

Jerez is many moons away, based on the MLB control/results.    Peters would seem to be the most likely LHP in the pen, at this point.

[totdprods]

32 minutes ago, AngelsFaninGA said:

And at the end of the day, we still finished only 13th in bullpen ERA, and that's skewed because the bullpen only really got better at the end of the season once we were out of contention and the pressure was off. That's the problem with this strategy, even if a ton of things break right, your upside is still mediocrity because you still have guys like Johnson and flops like Drake, Bard, Morris, Noe, Jerez, etc on the other end of the spectrum. That's not gonna get you to the playoffs. At some point we need players who are actually good and not just better than garbage. We're not the A's or Rays. 

That’s also in part because our bullpen depth wound up in the rotation starting games for half the season. 

The pen success is dependent on the health of the rotation. 

[Dick Enberg]

• Many Angels fans were displeased to see the Angels swap out lefty Jose Alvarezfor right-hander Luis Garcia in a one-for-one trade last night, given Garcia’s 6.07 ERA with the Phillies in 2018. As GM Billy Eppler explains to Jeff Fletcher of the Orange Country Register, though, the Angels (obviously) paid little heed to Garcia’s ERA and instead bet on the right-hander’s velocity, ground-ball tendencies and other characteristics they found appealing. “He has the characteristics we gravitate to: strikeouts, ground balls and big stuff,” says Eppler of his new right-hander. “… He provides us another power look out of the bullpen to complement Ty Buttrey, Hansel Robles, Justin Anderson and Keynan Middleton (after he comes back from Tommy John surgery) sometime in the middle of 2019. You have a fairly high-octane bullpen that can miss a bunch of bats.”

https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2018/12/astros-rumors-catcher-athletics-trade-rumors-rotation-second-base.html

[totdprods]

8 minutes ago, Dick Enberg said:

• Many Angels fans were displeased to see the Angels swap out lefty Jose Alvarezfor right-hander Luis Garcia in a one-for-one trade last night, given Garcia’s 6.07 ERA with the Phillies in 2018. As GM Billy Eppler explains to Jeff Fletcher of the Orange Country Register, though, the Angels (obviously) paid little heed to Garcia’s ERA and instead bet on the right-hander’s velocity, ground-ball tendencies and other characteristics they found appealing. “He has the characteristics we gravitate to: strikeouts, ground balls and big stuff,” says Eppler of his new right-hander. “… He provides us another power look out of the bullpen to complement Ty Buttrey, Hansel Robles, Justin Anderson and Keynan Middleton (after he comes back from Tommy John surgery) sometime in the middle of 2019. You have a fairly high-octane bullpen that can miss a bunch of bats.”

https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2018/12/astros-rumors-catcher-athletics-trade-rumors-rotation-second-base.html

No mention of Cam.

[Inside Pitch]

2 hours ago, AngelsFaninGA said:

And at the end of the day, we still finished only 13th in bullpen ERA, and that's skewed because the bullpen only really got better at the end of the season once we were out of contention and the pressure was off. That's the problem with this strategy, even if a ton of things break right, your upside is still mediocrity because you still have guys like Johnson and flops like Drake, Bard, Morris, Noe, Jerez, etc on the other end of the spectrum. That's not gonna get you to the playoffs. At some point we need players who are actually good and not just better than garbage. We're not the A's or Rays. 

You're using ERA when discussing a bullpen -- probably not the best metric to point to in order to argue what you are.  You then point out they ranked 13th -- that's in MLB, not the AL meaning there were 17 teams below them.  So, using your criteria.... they somehow managed to be above average despite having a piss poor rotation that failed to give the team innings and forced the pen to overuse, or employ guys in situations they shouldn't have been.  Lastly, the two teams you mentioned won 97 and 90 games -- one of them got into the playoffs, and at least three other playoff bullpens were noticeably worse.. again -- based on your ERA criteria.

Now, would you like to revisit the numbers put up by all the "better than garbage" RP signed in FA last year?      

 

Edited December 7, 2018 by Inside Pitch

[Dick Enberg]

20 minutes ago, totdprods said:

No mention of Cam.

Yep! can Cam even hit 95 mph anymore? those mentioned in the article can unleash it at 97, 98 99 MPH.....if these guys evolve, we could have a lights out pen. all showed promise last year at one time or another.

Looks like Eppler is into "speed"

 

[SlappyUtilityMIF]

5 hours ago, totdprods said:

Meyer: 14.21 ERA prior to Angels in limited appearances, gave the Angels 18 GS of 3.94 ERA ball. Dogshit how? Injuries limited him, but he was better here than ever.
Bailey: limited by injury, but posted 1.76 ERA (3.28 FIP) in 16 games. Not dogshit.
Wood: injuries limited his time, ERA near 5.00 in ~250 games before Angels, 3.77 ERA as an Angel, with a K/9 increase to from 8.6 to 10, BB/9 decrease from 6.7 to 3.5
Guerra: 3.68 ERA in nearly 80 innings
Chavez: was badass in relief as an Angel, minus 3 games (small sample size), and carried that success in the pen since.
Salas: 2.0: 2.63 ERA, 2.28 FIP, 0.659 WHIP in 13 games

Ramirez, Bridwell, and Pena were scrub relievers who combined to give us exactly 64 GS - full spots in the rotation - of 4.17 ball. 
Andrew Heaney's career so far is 61 G, 4.35 ERA.
That's pretty good for three dudes who cost league-minimum and cost nothing but waiver claims.

Obviously we all could have hoped for more from these guys, but if Eppler has any track record going for him, it's making the most of crappy pitchers. 
Numerous examples of guys who were dogshit coming here, and at least giving us league-average (if not more) indicates there's some hope for Luis Garcia.

All of those stats are small sample size due to injuries!

Injuries are injuries. 

Meyer had injury issues before. They all did. Chavez and Nolasco got lit up like Christmas trees....Chavez did great in relief you say? Outstanding! He was shit and barely made it out of the 3rd-5th too many numerous times to count as a starter.

TossedSalad was dogshit his first time here. He was a mop up guy when he came here the second time. And Sven kept running him out there.

Guerra of the group was decent but he didnt last no clue why?

Ramirez, Bridwell, Pena have done fine like I stated above. Guess, you didnt read that part. Ramirez usually has a bad inning which would lead to a loss and Pena didnt receive much run support or the bullpen let him down. Bridwell showed nad which is what they all should have done.

Whatever happened to Dane De La Rosa?...His arm fell off.

No need to stick up for any of them unless you're sharing beds.

[Biergott]

3 hours ago, Dick Enberg said:

• Many Angels fans were displeased to see the Angels swap out lefty Jose Alvarezfor right-hander Luis Garcia in a one-for-one trade last night, given Garcia’s 6.07 ERA with the Phillies in 2018. As GM Billy Eppler explains to Jeff Fletcher of the Orange Country Register, though, the Angels (obviously) paid little heed to Garcia’s ERA and instead bet on the right-hander’s velocity, ground-ball tendencies and other characteristics they found appealing. “He has the characteristics we gravitate to: strikeouts, ground balls and big stuff,” says Eppler of his new right-hander. “… He provides us another power look out of the bullpen to complement Ty Buttrey, Hansel Robles, Justin Anderson and Keynan Middleton (after he comes back from Tommy John surgery) sometime in the middle of 2019. You have a fairly high-octane bullpen that can miss a bunch of bats.”

https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2018/12/astros-rumors-catcher-athletics-trade-rumors-rotation-second-base.html

Thanks for reminding me....ouch.  Middle of 2019 is so far away still

[2112]

This thread has gone, well interesting....

 

The philosophy BA (Before Ausmus ;)) was to have multi inning relievers.  Garcia's stat's look like he's one inning or less.  Is this a change in tactics?

 

[totdprods]

@SlappyUtilityMIF the point being made was the fact that they improved after landing in Anaheim, not the overall measurement of what they did or didn’t do based on injury limitation.

The assumption being offered is because Luis Garcia has a 6.00 ERA, he is awful and will not improve and the Angels have no track record indicating otherwise, when there is numerous examples proving the opposite. 

The reason most of these guys were available for so cheap, or were awful prior, were because they had injury issues - that’s not what’s being disputed. I’m simply saying that Eppler’s team has been able to consistently find shitty and/or damaged goods and get productive innings out of them - even if they eventually break - and it’s straight up incorrect to say that his team hasn’t had success in that regard. It’s the only thing he’s shown consistent success with.

[SlappyUtilityMIF]

I know you weren't saying it. I was. And also, I was advised I was dogshit when I was on the DL and couldnt wash my hair or raise my arm above my shoulder...Its a figure of speech by players, coaches, managers and FO types. You give up a bomb and you come in from the bump and your teammates slap you on the ass and tell you great job you're dogshit....I didnt care. Most dont. Bonus babies cry about it.

I had thick skin. And came back at them if our rotation was any good. I wouldnt have thrown 42 times in 60 games. 

I didnt assume Garcia was dogshit. As I havent seen him throw yet. 

[SlappyUtilityMIF]

28 minutes ago, NotMyCat said:

This thread has gone, well interesting....

 

The philosophy BA (Before Ausmus ;)) was to have multi inning relievers.  Garcia's stat's look like he's one inning or less.  Is this a change in tactics?

 

Dont know if its changed completely. Maybe, a certain amount of evaluation was done. That yeah, we just ran out 30+ arms out of the bullpen in 2018 and 12 of those are toast..... I think it had more to do with Sven. When he found a guy with some success he rode that pony till his arm fell off. Interesting, Tommy Lasorda did that as well.

[angelsnationtalk]

18 hours ago, TroutTrumbo said:

No thanks on Harper. Who wants another 10 year contract at a ridiculous amount of money. That would leave you with four players making 120 mil. Kikuchi is a Boras client so that probably eliminates the Angels. 

Right now the Angels are playing for the second WC. They have too many holes to compete with Houston, Boston, New York and Cleveland. I think 2019 will be another .500 finish . 

If you include two opt-outs and given Pujols’ contract come off the books soon, it’s doable. Giving someone a 10 year contract at 26 is a better outcome than giving someone one at 32 like Pujols. You’re buying at least 5 years of someone’s prime years. 

Im not sure about you, but another .500 finish would push someone like Trout out of the door. He wants a ring. Period.

[Jeff Fletcher]

The Angels are doing way more with analytics now than ever. 

They have loads of analytics that tell them that Garcia has a better chance of being good in 2019 and 2020 than Alvarez. Simple as that. I have no idea if they're right, but I know they put a lot more time and thought into it than any of us have.

If you want your team to be making decisions based on modern analytics, you aren't always going to understand those decisions.

[Docwaukee]

14 minutes ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

The Angels are doing way more with analytics now than ever. 

They have loads of analytics that tell them that Garcia has a better chance of being good in 2019 and 2020 than Alvarez. Simple as that. I have no idea if they're right, but I know they put a lot more time and thought into it than any of us have.

If you want your team to be making decisions based on modern analytics, you aren't always going to understand those decisions.

translation:

the Angels (and pretty much every other team), know shit that you don't so shut your pie hole.  

[AngelsLakersFan]

Alvarez has never been any good. Somehow he put up decent numbers last year but losing him is no loss.

[ettin]

18 minutes ago, AngelsLakersFan said:

Alvarez has never been any good. Somehow he put up decent numbers last year but losing him is no loss.

This has been repeated so often and it is just not true. I'm not upset over the loss mind you but let's give him credit for the times he did get it done.