OC Register: Angels Offseason Options: Mike Moustakas

[eligrba]

No on Moose.

It is time to stop spending free agent money on patching and begin using it for building.

[Jeff Fletcher]

9 minutes ago, Kevinb said:

Did u just say they don’t want to spend much of anything on offense? In an offensively league this front office doesn’t want to spend anything on offense? Ok then. 

it's because they feel their internal options (Fletcher, Ward, Rengifo, Thaiss, Fernandez) have more upside than their internal pitching options.

Also, they have a pretty good core already with Trout, Upton, Ohtani and Simmons all being above average. If they can just get 3 of the 5 other spots up to average, they'll be in good shape. Can they get three major league average offensive seasons out of the group of Pujols, Cozart, Fletcher, Ward, Rengifo, Thaiss, Fernandez, Briceno, Arcia, Smith? Could be close.

[Docwaukee]

1 hour ago, Tank said:

i wonder why more firstbasemen are not able to play third. it's a corner infield position that is roughly equivalent on that side of the diamon, though you need a stronger arm and will lilkely see more ground balls hit your way.

this is a very weak comparison, but i started off as a baseball player at third and transitioned to first - it was a very easy transition to make, and i wasn't near the elite athlete like most of these guys are. i wonder why the reverse doesn't happen more often. they tried it with trumbo, who wasn't awful at third, but i felt like they gave up too quickly on him. and some here may remember that pujols played some third base for the cardinals early on in his career.

just a thought.

all the reasons that make someone a poor 3bman ends up being a reason to try to hide them at 1b because of fewer chances.  Stone hands, weak arm, no range, poor footwork.  3bmen play closer because of the bunt and the longer throw so it magnifies all those things.  

they're playing 1b because they can't play 3b well enough.  Not because someone didn't think to try them there.  

[greginpsca]

6 hours ago, Dtwncbad said:

Taylor Ward's OBP was .245 and Pujols was .289.

Moustakas isn't ideal but any at bat he takes from one of those two increases the team OBP.

A 2.4 WAR player that plays first and third at a very cheap salary is almost a dream come true given the other in house options.

Ward was getting his first cup of coffee, Moose has been around a long time. He won't get any better. Even Trout had trouble in his first cup of coffee. I will give Ward a pass until we have seen more.

[greginpsca]

2 hours ago, Hubs said:

I just see them targeting a 1st base/OF solution over a 1b/3b one.

Walsh

[kevinb]

2 hours ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

it's because they feel their internal options (Fletcher, Ward, Rengifo, Thaiss, Fernandez) have more upside than their internal pitching options.

Also, they have a pretty good core already with Trout, Upton, Ohtani and Simmons all being above average. If they can just get 3 of the 5 other spots up to average, they'll be in good shape. Can they get three major league average offensive seasons out of the group of Pujols, Cozart, Fletcher, Ward, Rengifo, Thaiss, Fernandez, Briceno, Arcia, Smith? Could be close.

Well there’s no chance Pujols gives the Angels that. But not sure of the others. But I’d rather go into the season with more than just question marks in 5 of the spots of the line up. 

[Erstad Grit]

Fletcher what do you see Donaldson getting?  Is he a buy low candidate or is he still closer to top tier? 

[Docwaukee]

57 minutes ago, Erstad Grit said:

Fletcher what do you see Donaldson getting?  Is he a buy low candidate or is he still closer to top tier? 

sorry I'm not fletcher, but I think he's in line for about 3/60.  Similar to Carlos Santana or Edwin Encarnacion.  He'll want somewhere around 5/125 considering his pedigree and late start.  

the buy low option on him will be 1/20 which essentially kills a lot of what we can do on the pitching side.  I know he's entering his age 33 season, but I think he's going to have a big year.  A back loaded 3/60 deal would work for me.  He's a guy I'd stretch for but I think I'm in the minority on that view.  

He adds more than any of the 12-15m pitchers available imo.  

[Broad Street]

If the Brewers bring back Moose, do you think they'll make Shaw or Hernan Perez available?

[T.G.]

8 hours ago, Dochalo said:

sorry I'm not fletcher,

Yes, but did you stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night?

[Jeff Fletcher]

12 hours ago, Kevinb said:

Well there’s no chance Pujols gives the Angels that. But not sure of the others. But I’d rather go into the season with more than just question marks in 5 of the spots of the line up. 

I'm sure Billy Eppler would like to have an All-Star at every position too, but that's not realistic. You have to look at what your resources are and prioritize.

He knows a lot more about his position player prospects than any of us do.

[Jeff Fletcher]

10 hours ago, Dochalo said:

sorry I'm not fletcher, but I think he's in line for about 3/60.  Similar to Carlos Santana or Edwin Encarnacion.  He'll want somewhere around 5/125 considering his pedigree and late start.  

the buy low option on him will be 1/20 which essentially kills a lot of what we can do on the pitching side.  I know he's entering his age 33 season, but I think he's going to have a big year.  A back loaded 3/60 deal would work for me.  He's a guy I'd stretch for but I think I'm in the minority on that view.  

He adds more than any of the 12-15m pitchers available imo.  

I don't think he gets anything close to that. Did you see last winter? Mike Moustakas certainly doesn't have the career that Donaldson has had, but he was 29 last winter and coming off a much better, healthier season than Donaldson is now. He got 1 year, $5.5M. 

Donaldson is going to be 33 and coming off a season in which he was hurt the whole time, pretty much.

I'm just guessing he'll end up with something like 2/$27-30M, and could be less. Maybe with an option.

That said, I would probably not be interested unless it got down to about 2/$18M. The guy is 33.

[Jeff Fletcher]

10 hours ago, Dochalo said:

sorry I'm not fletcher, but I think he's in line for about 3/60.  Similar to Carlos Santana or Edwin Encarnacion.  He'll want somewhere around 5/125 considering his pedigree and late start.  

the buy low option on him will be 1/20 which essentially kills a lot of what we can do on the pitching side.  I know he's entering his age 33 season, but I think he's going to have a big year.  A back loaded 3/60 deal would work for me.  He's a guy I'd stretch for but I think I'm in the minority on that view.  

He adds more than any of the 12-15m pitchers available imo.  

Santana was 31 and coming off 5 straight seasons in which he'd played 150 games.

Encarncacion was the same age, but he was coming off a season in which he'd played 160 games with an 886 OPS, and it still forever for him to get his deal. That was also two winters ago, and I think the industry has shifted even further away from deals for old guys.

[Docwaukee]

10 minutes ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

I don't think he gets anything close to that. Did you see last winter? Mike Moustakas certainly doesn't have the career that Donaldson has had, but he was 29 last winter and coming off a much better, healthier season than Donaldson is now. He got 1 year, $5.5M. 

Donaldson is going to be 33 and coming off a season in which he was hurt the whole time, pretty much.

I'm just guessing he'll end up with something like 2/$27-30M, and could be less. Maybe with an option.

That said, I would probably not be interested unless it got down to about 2/$18M. The guy is 33.

for me, I would jump on even the larger of your proposals assuming he's healthy and has no lingering issues.  maybe 2/20 with a third year team option of 10m and a 1m buyout.  The more I think about it though, the more I realize we're gonna role with current options outside of grabbing some flex guy who can play multiple positions for about 4-5 mil per year.  

[Blarg]

Much to agents and players dismay, all of the stats about age regression is working against guys that passed the 30 year old mark and looking for long term deals.

The economy of player value has gotten to the point where the big dollar free agents like Machado and Harper is still there simply because of how many quality years of service you are buying. After a player hits his early 30's clubs are going to look internal or via trade if the years outweigh the return.

Donaldson has no hope of a five year deal after already showing regression both in playing time and production.  Even a three year deal would be high risk at this point. Other than being a quick boost to the Angels for one or two seasons he really isn't a team building solution. He's that guy you buy when the team has that one hole left to fill. 

[floplag]

18 hours ago, Tank said:

i wonder why more firstbasemen are not able to play third. it's a corner infield position that is roughly equivalent on that side of the diamon, though you need a stronger arm and will lilkely see more ground balls hit your way.

this is a very weak comparison, but i started off as a baseball player at third and transitioned to first - it was a very easy transition to make, and i wasn't near the elite athlete like most of these guys are. i wonder why the reverse doesn't happen more often. they tried it with trumbo, who wasn't awful at third, but i felt like they gave up too quickly on him. and some here may remember that pujols played some third base for the cardinals early on in his career.

just a thought.

In my experience I say youve answered your own question at least partially, its the arm strength  for the most part but also the athleticism to make those throws from angles most other guys dont have to and the greater degree of mobility that 1B doesn't require.  In short, it takes a better overall athlete to play 3B than 1B.  The fielding part of it is comparable, but the rest is very different. 

[Second Base]

20 minutes ago, floplag said:

In my experience I say youve answered your own question at least partially, its the arm strength  for the most part but also the athleticism to make those throws from angles most other guys dont have to and the greater degree of mobility that 1B doesn't require.  In short, it takes a better overall athlete to play 3B than 1B.  The fielding part of it is comparable, but the rest is very different. 

There's a lot to it.  Arm strength is one, a quick release is another, along with an accurate arm.  Footwork is very important at 3B, as are reaction time and the general athletic ability to move to the places you need to go quickly and efficiently.

Playing third base in the major leagues is not easy.  Even taking a very good defensive SS like Zack Cozart and moving him to third base is a difficult transition.  Or even an exceptional athlete like Wil Myers struggled a little.  Taylor Ward was a perfect candidate now that I think of it.  The glove and arm are definitely there, but it takes a while to get the footwork down and understand what it's like to play there.  Taylor's transition was pretty rough at first, but in time I think he'll be a pretty solid defender over there. 

[Angel Oracle]

14 hours ago, Dochalo said:

all the reasons that make someone a poor 3bman ends up being a reason to try to hide them at 1b because of fewer chances.  Stone hands, weak arm, no range, poor footwork.  3bmen play closer because of the bunt and the longer throw so it magnifies all those things.  

they're playing 1b because they can't play 3b well enough.  Not because someone didn't think to try them there.  

Trumbo is exhibit A of a 1B not able to become a 3B.   That was an absolute failed experiment.

[Angel Oracle]

14 hours ago, greginpsca said:

Walsh

Speaking of which, someone was critiquing his swing as being somewhat as crazy as Blash's.   Is it really that bad? 

[Angel Oracle]

49 minutes ago, Blarg said:

Much to agents and players dismay, all of the stats about age regression is working against guys that passed the 30 year old mark and looking for long term deals.

The economy of player value has gotten to the point where the big dollar free agents like Machado and Harper is still there simply because of how many quality years of service you are buying. After a player hits his early 30's clubs are going to look internal or via trade if the years outweigh the return.

Donaldson has no hope of a five year deal after already showing regression both in playing time and production.  Even a three year deal would be high risk at this point. Other than being a quick boost to the Angels for one or two seasons he really isn't a team building solution. He's that guy you buy when the team has that one hole left to fill. 

This

They are more and more looking like Matt Joyce did here, abject failures for the money.

[Broad Street]

3 hours ago, Kody Mac said:

If the Brewers bring back Moose, do you think they'll make Shaw or Hernan Perez available?

@Jeff Fletcher do you think either of these players could be an option?

[floplag]

21 minutes ago, Second Base said:

There's a lot to it.  Arm strength is one, a quick release is another, along with an accurate arm.  Footwork is very important at 3B, as are reaction time and the general athletic ability to move to the places you need to go quickly and efficiently.

Playing third base in the major leagues is not easy.  Even taking a very good defensive SS like Zack Cozart and moving him to third base is a difficult transition.  Or even an exceptional athlete like Wil Myers struggled a little.  Taylor Ward was a perfect candidate now that I think of it.  The glove and arm are definitely there, but it takes a while to get the footwork down and understand what it's like to play there.  Taylor's transition was pretty rough at first, but in time I think he'll be a pretty solid defender over there. 

You make very interesting comparisons there, and as a coach for my kids for over a decade thru both baseball and softball, i found the mention of catchers very relevant.  There's a lot in common there in terms of the athleticism.   Quickness, footwork, agility, all traits that are applicable to both spots that are things not often discussed in the 1B conversation. 
Back story, my daughter was an all country catcher in high school who also played little league and senior league as she simply loved playing as much as possible.  Our district qualified for the Little league world series that year and made the trip back east.  Why is this relevant, well when the time came to pick that team we had other good catchers, but not as much depth or quality on the left side of the infield, so she ended up playing a lot of 3B and even SS on that team even though she was clearly the best catcher, she had the athleticism  to make those adjustments others did not. 

[T.G.]

13 minutes ago, Angel Oracle said:

Trumbo is exhibit A of a 1B not able to become a 3B.   That was an absolute failed experiment.

No offense, AO - but I hate this kind of reasoning.  Just because Trumbo failed as a 3B doesn't mean everyone else will too.  C'mon.

[Jeff Fletcher]

11 minutes ago, Kody Mac said:

@Jeff Fletcher do you think either of these players could be an option?

I don't see any reason the Brewers would bring back Moustakas instead of Shaw. And I don't think Hernan Perez is that good. He seems like a non-tender candidate.

[Angel Oracle]

45 minutes ago, True Grich said:

No offense, AO - but I hate this kind of reasoning.  Just because Trumbo failed as a 3B doesn't mean everyone else will too.  C'mon.

I get that.   Just saying that one has to beware of what can happen.   A 1B has to have sufficient range, foot work, and of course arm, to be able to move to 3B.