How to view the Angels present and future

[Second Base]

4 hours ago, totdprods said:

I think we could something  a little bit like the offseason where we moved Trumbo, Bourjos, Grichuk...made some significant moves with significant MLB players and prospects. 

A few prospects traded that are legitimately part of the 'plans' we so often draw up, a guy like Bedrosian, Alvarez, even something shocking like Anderson or Barria (trust me, it'd have to be something worth it), even a guy like Skaggs, Calhoun...it wouldn't surprise me if we saw a few trades involving some surprising names in an effort to really shuffle the pitching deck with a new group of guys to rely on, and maybe another significant hitter. 

Eppler can set the board a little differently and they can grow into this next wave of players with a new manager, with lessened expectations given the new manager, emergence of Oakland, knowing Ohtani won't be pitching, etc.

If they open the offseason with a Trout extension, it alleviates even more of that pressure and really lets them go any route they'd like, even saying that their focus isn't 2019, but now 2020+. So yeah, I could totally see a deal being announced right after the WS. It'd be a huge statement that the org will survive post-Sosh and be a great PR move, and it'd change the complexion of the offseason entirely, no matter which route they go.

Unless I'm mistaken, Eppler has only traded prospects once, and it was a deal in which he saw a player completely undervalued throughout baseball that would be a star, and he had some prospects in his newly inherited system that had high values that were unlikely to get any higher.  Furthermore, those prospects didn't fit his mold that he emphasizes in the minor leagues. 

On this side of the fence, the Simmons deal makes perfect sense.

But I'm not sure that circumstance will present itself again.  Sure, there are some prospects that had breakout years, whose value might be at it's highest point right now.  Guys like Luis Rengifo, Pat Sandoval, Jose Suarez etc...  But the thing with those guys is, they all seem to fit what Eppler's looking for in his prospects.  Rengifo controls the zone, works the count, makes good contact, works walks, can be put in motion and plays decent defense at a couple different positions.  Both Suarez and Sandoval pound the zone, miss bats and are fearless on the mound. 

So I'm racking my brain trying to figure out who he might trade.  David Fletcher maybe....probably not. 

So yeah, a Trout extension sounds as likely as anything else. 

[Tank]

8 hours ago, Rally Gorilla said:

Mike Trout has said he came to the team wanting to extend his contract to the Angels until the bulk of his remaining career.   To me, passing on an opportunity to lock up this generations greatest player is criminal.

who said the team has passed on extending him? according to reports, discussions have started.

[UndertheHalo]

You’ve got this wrong rally gorilla.  When they were negotiating the first extension Trouts team floated the idea of a “life time” contract.  They ended up settling on the current one.  There was no enmity. 

[eligrba]

4 hours ago, totdprods said:

I'm fine with Calhoun as the starting RF in 2019. There will be some teams interested based off his defense and red-hot stretch alone, since they'd technically only be on the hook for 1 year. $10m is a tremendous amount of money for that role.

And of course there would be other options for teams to pursue, but that doesn't mean there'd be no interest. 

Calhoun still has some trade value. It's weird trade value, but it's there. 

I cited Teheran as a possible pitching equivalent to Calhoun and his contract. Similar years, similar dollars, similar levels of concern. Tanner Roark could be another option.

Calhoun would be a better option if he learned to hit the ball somewhere else than 2B.  The only adjustment it looks like he made was to swing harder.  The Angels need a right fielder who can be an offensive asset as well as a defensive asset.

[Docwaukee]

I just don't see Shoe having success out of the pen.  Still like to see him as a starter even if he ends up as a solid #4 with a 4 era.  

I also think people need to come to terms with the idea that we're not getting Machado or Harper.  I think Arte will spend the 350 mil+ to extend trout, but he's not going to spend 600 mil on two players.  

He's taken us through a slow rebuild right before our eyes without anyone noticing.  How?  Arte has still spent a lot of money and we've kept decent players on the field around a superstar that's worth ten wins.  It's why we win around 80 as opposed to 70.  We also could have been better.  Maybe not 'win the division' better, but 'grab the 2nd WC' better if not for some key injuries.  

It will be more of the same this year.  A decent amount of money spent to grab a nice starter.  Maybe a trade for a position player.  Some bench depth.  Several guys off the waiver wire and/or some minor league FA's to fill out the rotation and pen.  

[Lou]

well said, doc 

[Angel Oracle]

Well said, although a Robertson could just be what the pen needs, and not cost what Kimbrel would cost in FA. 

[Rally Gorilla]

On 10/4/2018 at 6:29 PM, UndertheHalo said:

You’ve got this wrong rally gorilla.  When they were negotiating the first extension Trouts team floated the idea of a “life time” contract.  They ended up settling on the current one.  There was no enmity. 

If a team is lucky enough to get a once-in-a-generation player, and that player is interested in a "life time" contract.....it's criminal for Mr. Moreno to not do everything in his power to make that happen.   What did I get wrong?  Who said anything about enmity?    

[Lou]

Just now, Rally Gorilla said:

If a team is lucky enough to get a once-in-a-generation player, and that player is interested in a "life time" contract.....it's criminal for Mr. Moreno to not do everything in his power to make that happen.   What did I get wrong?  Who said anything about enmity?    

relax. Trout is going anywhere. 

[Rally Gorilla]

On 10/4/2018 at 5:59 PM, Tank said:

who said the team has passed on extending him? according to reports, discussions have started.

Trout mentioned previously that he had been open to the ideal of contract that would make him an Angel for the bulk of his career.   I'm not sure exactly when this was, UnderTheHalo posted above that this was during the negotiations for his previous extension.   Hopefully, he is still open to that idea this go around, and the team will do anything reasonable to make it happen.

[Lou]

1 minute ago, Rally Gorilla said:

Trout mentioned previously that he had been open to the ideal of contract that would make him an Angel for the bulk of his career.    Hopefully, he is still open to that idea and the team will do anything reasonable to make it happen.

 

2 minutes ago, Lou said:

relax. Trout is going anywhere. 

 

[Stradling]

55 minutes ago, Lou said:

 

 

You quoted yourself but I’m guessing you meant that Trout isn’t going anywhere.  

[Lou]

1 hour ago, Stradling said:

You quoted yourself but I’m guessing you meant that Trout isn’t going anywhere.  

I agreed 

[The Ghost of Bob Starr]

This talent is poor.  The record is justified.  Time to find some new bodies to put around trout Simmons and ohtani.  

[Ace-Of-Diamonds]

On 10/3/2018 at 8:19 PM, Angelsjunky said:

I see your point, but I'm not quite ready to go there with you, at least with Shoe, Skaggs, and to a lesser degree, Calhoun.

Let's start with Kole. At most he's a place-holder until Adell and/or Marsh are ready, which will probably be by the end of 2019. If Kole stinks and Adell or Marsh aren't ready, I'm fine going with Hermosillo or Walsh until they are. Barring going after Bryce Harper, I don't want Eppler to sign anyone to play RF that will block Adell.

Shoemaker really deserves a chance to pitch. Not only did he have a 3.34 FIP, which implies better things to come, but he has really only pitched a few games this year.

Skaggs just finished his highest innings year. He also has a lower FIP (3.63) than ERA, so should improve. 

The Angels could go after Corbin, but that still leaves Skaggs and Shoe in the rotation. What I don't want to see is the Angels sign a couple mid-rotation types, when they already have five or six guys who are major league ready and able to pitch on that level. My preferred starting rotation for 2019 is Corbin, Skaggs, Heaney, Shoemaker, and Barria, with Pena as swing man/sixth starter and Tropeano, Ramirez, Meyer, Suarez, and Canning waiting in the wings. That's a bunch of #3-5 types, with a solid #1-2 type in Corbin and several guys who could be #2-3 types. 

 

I don't have as much faith in Shoe as the first two posters in this thread. I think Skaggs will be fine. Except for the last few starts where he was pitching after coming off the 10 day DL in between starts, he was pitching in the high 2s ERA wise. Calhoun should be good until Adell is ready probably in 2020. I'm not as sold on Ward and Cozart holding down the fort as others including Eppler. I think we need to upgrade at corner IF, C, and more importantly at Pitching both TOR and bullpen arms. We really need to let Ohtani DH everyday and not give away his AB to Pujols any longer.

[Lou]

3 hours ago, Ace-Of-Diamonds said:

I don't have as much faith in Shoe as the first two posters in this thread. I think Skaggs will be fine. Except for the last few starts where he was pitching after coming off the 10 day DL in between starts, he was pitching in the high 2s ERA wise. Calhoun should be good until Adell is ready probably in 2020. I'm not as sold on Ward and Cozart holding down the fort as others including Eppler. I think we need to upgrade at corner IF, C, and more importantly at Pitching both TOR and bullpen arms. We really need to let Ohtani DH everyday and not give away his AB to Pujols any longer.

spot on, mate

[Lou]

7 hours ago, The Ghost of Bob Starr said:

This talent is poor.  The record is justified.  Time to find some new bodies to put around trout Simmons and ohtani.  

why is only Simmons' name capitalized? 

 

[Dtwncbad]

Shoemaker is as blue collar as you get and he grinds out as much production as his talent will allow.  But there is a ceiling, and my opinion is it would be very foolish to ever go into a season hoping that he performs better than a #4 starter.  #5 starter seems to be a better expectation.

Given that, moving to the bullpen might be a great move for him and for the Angels.

He is a grinder, and that fits a high inning bullpen role.

 

 

[Tank]

6 hours ago, Lou said:

why is only Simmons' name capitalized? 

 

seriously. who writes like that?!?

[SlappyUtilityMIF]

Strand was ripping me on Cam all year and he starts rolling that he needs to take the next step....Cam should have taken the next step 2 years ago! Straight as an arrow fastballs and sliders in the dirt are no way to go through life as a Major League Setup man!

Skaggs like his ability. Like his potential. Tire of his injuries. And lack of consistency with his breaking ball up in the zone. And when I say that it's based on games I watch not statistics or spin rate! 

Maybe, most of our issues with pitching will change with a new voice at the helm..... there were numerous rumblings that people were tiring of the lack of working out of jams and other lack of confidence from the man at the helm.

[Lou]

Hopefully, Cam can take the next step

 

[eligrba4ever]

On 10/4/2018 at 9:42 AM, Rally Gorilla said:

IMHO, the Angels won't succeed until Arte Moreno sells to an owner that is more committed to winning.

Baseball teams are valuable family assets. Arturo Moreno and his children, like the Steinbrenners, will probably be running this business for the next 40 years.

[Hubs]

This team is better than its results. They had a positive run differential for the majority of the season, then were outscored 56-13 in six games between Oakland and Houston, the second to last week of the season. They were eliminated from the post season, but this is just bad stretch.

And they had a good stretch to open the year, too..

Still, minus those few games they'd have had a 35-40 run positive differential. That's roughly a 85 or 87 win team.

They had a ton of injuries. Especially to starting pitching.

They had a ton of sub-par performers. The league average OPS was in the high .720's and the Angels had 5 players who had meaningful time have an OPS over .720. They had two between .700-720 and 14 players who were below .700. Those 14 guys aren't all young guys, earning experience. Calhoun had a few hot months and a few terrible months, including September.

Zack Cozart didn't hit well, hopefully because of injury, but neither did Maldonado, Chris Young, Jefry Marte, or Luis Valbuena. All were veterans who significantly underperformed. You can add Cowart to that list, and EY Jr. as well.

The Rookies didn't set the world on fire either. (Besides Ohtani, of course). Barring a trade or FA signing, Fletcher and Bricenio would be starters right now. They looked like young players, but not stars.

On the offensive side, the Angels need a little punch added. Via FA or Trade.

 

[Second Base]

1 hour ago, Hubs said:

This team is better than its results. They had a positive run differential for the majority of the season, then were outscored 56-13 in six games between Oakland and Houston, the second to last week of the season. They were eliminated from the post season, but this is just bad stretch.

And they had a good stretch to open the year, too..

Still, minus those few games they'd have had a 35-40 run positive differential. That's roughly a 85 or 87 win team.

They had a ton of injuries. Especially to starting pitching.

They had a ton of sub-par performers. The league average OPS was in the high .720's and the Angels had 5 players who had meaningful time have an OPS over .720. They had two between .700-720 and 14 players who were below .700. Those 14 guys aren't all young guys, earning experience. Calhoun had a few hot months and a few terrible months, including September.

Zack Cozart didn't hit well, hopefully because of injury, but neither did Maldonado, Chris Young, Jefry Marte, or Luis Valbuena. All were veterans who significantly underperformed. You can add Cowart to that list, and EY Jr. as well.

The Rookies didn't set the world on fire either. (Besides Ohtani, of course). Barring a trade or FA signing, Fletcher and Bricenio would be starters right now. They looked like young players, but not stars.

On the offensive side, the Angels need a little punch added. Via FA or Trade.

 

Unfortunately, that doesn't look likely.  The Angels website anticipates Fletcher and Ward basically competing for one spot and Cozart taking the other.  So if Fletcher wins it, Cozart goes to 3B.  If Ward wins it, Cozart shifts to 2B, which puts Fletcher at UTIL. Calhoun needs to be replaced in RF, but Fletcher himself said there are bigger fish to fry (paraphrasing).  They'll look to upgrade at catcher, but right now there are seven teams in need to an upgrade at catcher, and the only impact bats available in free agency are Wilson Ramos and Yasmani Grandal, which means five teams are going to be disappointed.  The Marlins asking price J.T. Realmuto is through the roof right now, and they're interested in negotiating an extension for him, so he'll either stay put, or some poor team is going to give up an absolute haul to get him.  

Basically, I don't think the offense is going to upgrade, even though it clearly needs to.  The Angels will focus on starting pitching, but personally, I don't see that as getting a lot better without spending some serious money or prospect capital.  Eppler himself said three of them are guaranteed spots next year, and reading between the lines, that's probably Skaggs, Heaney and Barria. So basically, the other two spots they're looking to improve over Shoemaker and Pena, who are both decent, if not undependable. But with Griffin Canning, Jose Suarez and even Pat Sandoval showing they could be ready very soon, I think the Angels would end up improving over the course of the year regardless. 

End result is I think this teams spends money or prospects on non-impactful starting pitching and misses an opportunity to truly improve the team by getting a new RF, 3B and C. 

I want to have high hopes for this team, but I just don't see it happening this winter. 

[Hubs]

52 minutes ago, Scotty@AW said:

Unfortunately, that doesn't look likely.  The Angels website anticipates Fletcher and Ward basically competing for one spot and Cozart taking the other.  So if Fletcher wins it, Cozart goes to 3B.  If Ward wins it, Cozart shifts to 2B, which puts Fletcher at UTIL. Calhoun needs to be replaced in RF, but Fletcher himself said there are bigger fish to fry (paraphrasing).  They'll look to upgrade at catcher, but right now there are seven teams in need to an upgrade at catcher, and the only impact bats available in free agency are Wilson Ramos and Yasmani Grandal, which means five teams are going to be disappointed.  The Marlins asking price J.T. Realmuto is through the roof right now, and they're interested in negotiating an extension for him, so he'll either stay put, or some poor team is going to give up an absolute haul to get him.  

Basically, I don't think the offense is going to upgrade, even though it clearly needs to.  The Angels will focus on starting pitching, but personally, I don't see that as getting a lot better without spending some serious money or prospect capital.  Eppler himself said three of them are guaranteed spots next year, and reading between the lines, that's probably Skaggs, Heaney and Barria. So basically, the other two spots they're looking to improve over Shoemaker and Pena, who are both decent, if not undependable. But with Griffin Canning, Jose Suarez and even Pat Sandoval showing they could be ready very soon, I think the Angels would end up improving over the course of the year regardless. 

End result is I think this teams spends money or prospects on non-impactful starting pitching and misses an opportunity to truly improve the team by getting a new RF, 3B and C. 

I want to have high hopes for this team, but I just don't see it happening this winter. 

 

They need an offensive upgrade at C. Wilson Ramos is the one I'd pick. I also like Grandal. Jonathan Lucroy doesn't fit with the Angels but he's a free agent. I think Grandal could get 5/85 which is an expensive deal, but not out of the range. Ramos has an injury history, but also hits to a higher average. The biggest team looking for an upgrade at C is the Astros. McCann is not likely to return, and Maldonado is also a free agent.Other playoff bound teams would include the Braves, but I don't think they spend the money. The Rays also need a C, but it won't be Grandal / Ramos / Realmuto.

I think the Astros get Realmuto, the Angels get Grandal, and the Braves Ramos.

Then they need to get a Jon Jay type, and possibly even a veteran infielder/platoon 1st baseman. Or maybe the guy is Marwin Gonzalez. He's not going to be expensive, and he can play both corner infield and corner outfield, and even 2nd if needed.

Cozart/Fletcher/Ward split 2nd and 3rd and are the backup SS as well.

Assuming Simmons plays 150+ games that's say 112 games each. Ward and Fletcher will also both see time in SLC next year because they have options.

So, if they can get a C at $12 (Ramos) to $17M per AAV, then add Gonzalez on a Luis Valbuena type deal ($8M AAV) then they'd be at $25M.

Then I think the Angels need to look at starting pitching.

And yes, That means spending more than many expected to spend.