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MLB award silliness read today


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8 hours ago, Kevinb said:

Trout ain't the MVP no matter how you slice it. Trout has a lower WAR than Betts and he is 20 plus games out of first place while Betts plays for the best team in baseball, with the best record. The only reason you are arguing this is because you are an Angels homer and not a realist. If Trout had the same numbers Betts has and the Angels had the same record the Sox do while Betts was doing what Trout was doing on similar team as the Angels in the East with a shit record there is no way you would be arguing for Betts right now.

Trout has better numbers than Betts in several major categories. Trout is only slightly behind Betts in SLG. WAR adjusted for ball parks and Trout is far ahead of Betts in WAR.

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8 hours ago, Ace-Of-Diamonds said:

Trout has better numbers than Betts in several major categories. Trout is only slightly behind Betts in SLG. WAR adjusted for ball parks and Trout is far ahead of Betts in WAR.

WAR is already adjusted for ballparks. Betts is ahead on both BR and FanGraphs, mostly because he's better defensively.

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11 hours ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

 

Actually, I should correct that....

The MVP is the player who had the best season. 

I think this is a great definition actually, take the rest out of it such as overall team performance and such, who had the better year.
We would still get arguments i'm sure as to what constitutes better and homerism will always be a factor but at least we could stop including things that have no bearing on the argument, such as teams with winning records.
Being on a better team doesn't make a player better, in fact it likely inflates many numbers. 

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28 minutes ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

If you can’t appreciate that Betts is having a season just as good as Trout, even without considering their teams, then you’re arent looking at it objectively. 

Yeah, Betts and Trout are essentially the 1-2 choice (or vice versa) depending on which way you are coming from.  Trout leads in offensive WAR so, really, the biggest difference is how Betts' defense in RF is judged in comparison to Trout's defense in CF.  If the Angels actually had a line-up that got runners on ahead of Trout, and had batters that could knock him in once he's on, I'd be interested to see RBI and RS totals in that scenario.

 

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3 minutes ago, mulwin444 said:

Yeah, Betts and Trout are essentially the 1-2 choice (or vice versa) depending on which way you are coming from.  Trout leads in offensive WAR so, really, the biggest difference is how Betts' defense in RF is judged in comparison to Trout's defense in CF.  If the Angels actually had a line-up that got runners on ahead of Trout, and had batters that could knock him in once he's on, I'd be interested to see RBI and RS totals in that scenario.

 

Do you believe the voters are using WAR to determine MVP

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5 minutes ago, Troll Daddy said:

Do you believe the voters are using WAR to determine MVP

Anyone who would be inclined to vote for Trout would be. And he’s not winning that either. 

With three games to go (and things could change) it’s hard to justify Trout over Betts unless you say it’s just a purely offensive award or you don’t believe in Betts defensive metrics. 

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5 minutes ago, Troll Daddy said:

Do you believe the voters are using WAR to determine MVP

I'm not going to speak for 30 (ish) individual sportwriters, nor try to read their minds, but considering Betts (on a playoff team) lost to Trout (not on a playoff team) in 2016, seems to indicate that they consider it in their evaluation.  For that year, Trout was #1 in WAR at 10.5 and Betts was #2 in WAR at 9.7 and that's exactly how the vote played out and no one else was close, just like no one else was close to them in WAR (closest was Altuve at 7.7 WAR).  Or last season Altuve had a 8.3 WAR to Judge's 8.1 WAR and they also finished 1-2.  Same with the NL between Stanton (7.6 WAR) and Votto (7.5 WAR). 

Previously, Donaldson beat Trout in 2015 despite Trout beating Donaldson in WAR 9.4 to 8.5 weighed mostly (in terms of comments I read in 2015) due to Donaldson's RBI totals (which is a team/line-up driven stat) and the fact that Donaldson was on a playoff team (again, not individual).  If Betts ends up winning, which is likely, he'll do so because he had the best overall individual season based on offense, defense, and baserunning despite the fact that Trout had a better season than his MVP years of 2014 and 2016. 

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12 minutes ago, mulwin444 said:

I'm not going to speak for 30 (ish) individual sportwriters, nor try to read their minds, but considering Betts (on a playoff team) lost to Trout (not on a playoff team) in 2016, seems to indicate that they consider it in their evaluation.  For that year, Trout was #1 in WAR at 10.5 and Betts was #2 in WAR at 9.7 and that's exactly how the vote played out and no one else was close, just like no one else was close to them in WAR (closest was Altuve at 7.7 WAR).  Or last season Altuve had a 8.3 WAR to Judge's 8.1 WAR and they also finished 1-2.  Same with the NL between Stanton (7.6 WAR) and Votto (7.5 WAR). 

Previously, Donaldson beat Trout in 2015 despite Trout beating Donaldson in WAR 9.4 to 8.5 weighed mostly (in terms of comments I read in 2015) due to Donaldson's RBI totals (which is a team/line-up driven stat) and the fact that Donaldson was on a playoff team (again, not individual).  If Betts ends up winning, which is likely, he'll do so because he had the best overall individual season based on offense, defense, and baserunning despite the fact that Trout had a better season than his MVP years of 2014 and 2016. 

I believe Trout had his best defensive year as a Angel. I could argue it was a great offensive year but not his best. I guess it depends on what you value statically.

 

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5 minutes ago, Troll Daddy said:

I believe Trout had his best defensive year as a Angel. I could argue it was a great offensive year but not his best. I guess it depends on what you value statically.

 

He did. But he’s competing against the rest of the league, not himself. 

I actually asked an outfielder who has seen a ton of Betts in the AL East, and he said he is the best. 

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2 minutes ago, Troll Daddy said:

I believe Trout had his best defensive year as a Angel. I could argue it was a great offensive year but not his best. I guess it depends on what you value statically.

 

He leads the entire MLB in OPS, OPS+, Offensive WAR, is 2nd only to Davis (the current HR leader) in AB per HR (12.2 for Davis to 12.1 for Trout), he's been successful stealing a base 92% of the time..

If he's had a better offensive season, I'm not sure which it is...

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2 minutes ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

He did. But he’s competing against the rest of the league, not himself. 

I actually asked an outfielder who has seen a ton of Betts in the AL East, and he said he is the best. 

Only 5 assists overall for Mookie this season...don't know much about his defense so would you say this is because people don't run on him because he has a solid arm or is the arm just adequate/average?

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7 minutes ago, mulwin444 said:

Only 5 assists overall for Mookie this season...don't know much about his defense so would you say this is because people don't run on him because he has a solid arm or is the arm just adequate/average?

Arm is only one fascist of defense. Mookie's best asset is his range, as he is basically a CF playing RF.

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Betts will win it.  He deserves to win it.  He and Trout were very comparable individually but i think the fact that someone managed to put up a Trout-esque year not named Trout will give him the nod especially among the east coast press.  That doesnt make them wrong mind you, it just makes them more likely to use that reasoning to justify the choice.   

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4 minutes ago, IIIII said:

Arm is only one fascist of defense. Mookie's best asset is his range, as he is basically a CF playing RF.

Not saying it's a detriment, just genuinely curious since I hardly ever watch Betts play the field.  Additionally, one of things commented on in terms of trout's improved defense has been his arm.

Betts had 14 assists in 2016 and 8 assists in 2017 from RF so I'm guessing guys just don't run on him much.

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44 minutes ago, mulwin444 said:

He leads the entire MLB in OPS, OPS+, Offensive WAR, is 2nd only to Davis (the current HR leader) in AB per HR (12.2 for Davis to 12.1 for Trout), he's been successful stealing a base 92% of the time..

If he's had a better offensive season, I'm not sure which it is...

Dude, you know none of what you said matters in this argument. 

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4 minutes ago, tdawg87 said:

Dude, you know none of what you said matters in this argument. 

Well, to be clear, I was addressing Troll Daddy's post about "I could argue it was a great offensive year but not his best" and that's it.

If people want to give it to Betts, there is not much of an argument against it from me

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5 minutes ago, mulwin444 said:

Well, to be clear, I was addressing Troll Daddy's post about "I could argue it was a great offensive year but not his best" and that's it.

If people want to give it to Betts, there is not much of an argument against it from me

His point is you are arguing facts with troll daddy which really doesn’t help or matter.

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Trophies are nice. Flags are better. I'm more likely to remember who won a WS in any given year as opposed to who won the MVP.  Awards are subjective to certain degree.  Championships are not.  I don't know how many, if any MVP's Bill Russell won, but I know he won 8 titles in a row and 11 overall as a Celtic.  I know MJ won a ton of MVP's, but I don't know how many exactly - but I know he won six titles.  Again... trophies are nice - flags are better.

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