Do Angel fans want to "elevate" the franchise?

[ten ocho recon scout]

1 minute ago, UndertheHalo said:

And even they don’t really give a shit.  

If you live in north OC, you have far more in common with LA than you do your fellow OC people who are from south county, the beach, etc.

And for all the trash wome people talk about LA, theres plenty of LA cities nicer than Anaheim (not anaheim hills).

[Dtwncbad]

I live in South OC. No I dont like the LA in the name (I think most of LA is not for me) but the reality is Anaheim isn't anything I treasure either.

If they are not going to be the California Angels, then I probably don't really care what they call them.

I can begin to care a little if I buy into the strategy that being LA might bring more financial success to the business side of it.

An extreme example but I would rather be the LA Angels signing Machado than the Anaheim Angels signing Chase Headley.

[Angelsjunky]

The Yankees are, as everyone knows, the most successful franchise in baseball history. They won almost half of all World Series from 1923-64. But things began to change in the mid-60s. When George Steinbrenner bought the team in 1973, they had gone eight years without a playoff appearance. He changed management and went on a spending spree which yielded five playoff appearances and two WS wins between 1976-81. But they then went through their worst phase, missing the postseason for 13 straight years, from 1982-94 (although technically 1994 didn't have a postseasno, so 12). The organization turned around and has been one of the best in baseball from 1995 to the present, winning 5 World Series, although only 1 since 2001. Their success was due to a combination of free agency signings and an overall strong farm system, largely due to international scouting. 

I mention this because there's a big fallacy that in order to be an "elevated" franchise you need to spend big. You do need to be spend, but the most important factor in long-term success is a strong farm system, and that includes scouting, international and domestic, strong drafting, and player development.

You start with that, build most of your major league roster from within, then augment with sparing free agent signings and savvy trades.

Take the 1998 Yankees, their best year in the modern run (114-48). Their team was a mixture of homegrown talent (Jeter, Williams, Posada, Pettitte, Rivera, Mendoza, etc) and smart signings and trades (Martinez, O'Neill, Wells, Brosius, Raines, Strawberry, Cone, Knoblauch, etc). But one thing to note is that the team's success didn't last, or at least was rocky afterwards as, due to the aging of their roster, they weren't emphasizing farm development enough. Furthermore, while the Yankees did remain competitive, they did so with virtually unlimited funds, which the Angels don't have (in terms of revenue).

This is why a team like the Astros is so scary. They've got a very young roster and a good farm system. They really could be a powerhouse for the next half decade or more. Sure, they won't be able to afford all of their stars, so at some point they'll have a dip, like what happened to the Atlhetics in the mid-00s. 

Now the Angels aren't the Astros in that they presumably won't have multiple #1 draft picks for years in a row. But I hope the Angels look more to the Astros as a model for success than the Yankees.

[Blarg]

Arte made that statement of being the West Coast Yankees back in 2004. He tried that method of buying a championship, it never quite worked out. I'm pretty sure his business model has changed. 

[Second Base]

The thing is, you don't have to be like the Yankees to win a World Series.

Look at the Giants. Three world championships in five years.

How did they do it? Spending wisely, not relying on superstars but getting consistent production across the board, consistent infusion of minor league talent, great rotation and bullpen, good health and good fortune. 

Basically the exact opposite of the Angels.

We've spent unwisely (Pujols, Hamilton, Wells, Matthews Jr., Pineiro, Blanton, the back half of Weav and Wilson's contracts), we have a couple good players (Trout, Simmons, Ohtani, Upton to an extent) and the rest of the lineup is utter garbage, we haven't had prospect assistance thanks to Dipoto until this year, and while we have a great rotation, it's been absolutely decimated by injuries (moreso than any team in baseball this year and the past three) and our bullpen is a disaster.

So how do we fix it and take the next step forward as an organization. 

I think as Ben Solo put it, "Let the past die."

That means letting go of the past, cutting ties with what came before 2019 if it isn't going to help the team.

Convince Pujols it's time to hang them up and move into a coaching or front office role, and if he isn't ok with that, then cut ties. Either way, he can't take up a roster spot any longer.

Don't pick up Valbuena's option. We've all seen enough. Don't get me wrong, we love his clubhouse presence, but the on-field production isn't where it needs to be.

Let Thaiss take over full time 1B, let Fernandez take over part time DH when Ohtani isn't hitting and promote Taylor Ward to play third base. Remember, we don't need superstars at every position, we just need steady contributors, someone that won't be a black hole. That's what you get in Thaiss, Ward and Fernandez, consistent hitters that can do a little bit of everything and are vast improvements over Pujols, Valbuena and whoever else.

Say bye bye to Kinsler in FA. What can we say, he's been a great player for a long time but time catches up with all of us. He's a shell of the star he once was. But I will say this, seeing him play for the Angels this year has redeemed him in my eyes. He's not as big of a jerk as I thought now that I've had a chance to watch him play everyday.

Move Cozart across the diamond to second base and have him battle David Fletcher for the starting spot. Loser takes the UTIL position. I don't can't about his contract, the best players need to play and he'll need to outplay Fletcher, a total gamer that has been outplaying more noticed athletes his entire life.

Trade Calhoun and either sign or trade for a more productive short term option in RF. Again, like the Giants, this doesn't have to be a star, but it does need to be someone that can produce, play acceptable D and when Adell/Marsh are ready in 2 years, step aside.

Bring back Garrett Richards. He's great friends with Trout who we want to keep around  for a long time, he pitches toward the front of the rotation, and if nothing else, he has low mileage on his arm.

Other than that, keep the rotation as is. Hopefully Ohtani is back healthy, keep Heaney, Skaggs and Barria. Take advantage of the depth we'll finally have in Meyer and Ramirez being healthy, Shoe's return and the presence of Canning and Suarez in AAA. 

Actually, just move Meyer and Ramirez into relief. They need that. And promote Canning in May to preserve an additional season on control. That kid will slot very nicely with Richards and Ohtani at the front of the rotation.

After moving Meyer and Ramirez into the bullpen, get rid of the holdovers that didn't perform, like Bedrosian and Noe Ramirez (not entirely Noe's fault he's been used incorrectly).

Spend any money we have coming off the books on relievers. Surround Scioscia or whoever is managing next year with so many options he can't screw it up.

After all of that, start throwing ridiculous sums of money at Trout and extend him for another decade.

If the Angels do all of that, they'll be hard to beat in 2019, and with the farm system Eppler is building, they'll be consistent contenders for very long time. 

It won't require spending like the Yanks or Dodgers, it will require bold moves, spending wisely and continuing to invest in the farm and not trading it away.

That's how the Angels elevate.

[BackUpTheTruck]

Bryce Harper for 15 years 450 million dollars would be classic Angels.

[Puget Sound Angel]

How could anyone have a problem with 26 World Series championships for the Angels?

[Docwaukee]

the luxury tax started in 1997 but it was sort of half assed.  It went away till 2003 when the threshold was created.  The yankees have won a single WS title in that time.  2009 because fuentes threw Arod a fastball.  

They've paid out $319.6 mil in taxes during that period.  Not payroll, but taxes.  

On top of that, their WS teams before that had a tremendous core of home grown talent.  They just had amazing flexibility in supplementing that core.  

no one has bought themselves a WS victory in that time.  Yes, teams that spend more money typically give themselves a better chance.  

but look at the new narrative in baseball.  It's the same as the old one.  penalties, restrictions, taxes, caps etc. force you to build from within.  Teams with more financial flexibility can extend their window or shorten the internal of a rebuild.  

big market teams try to stay competitive during their rebuild.  maybe win 87 games and sneak into the playoffs.  trying to maintain their fanbase.  they might have to endure a couple 90+ loss seasons in the interim.  But they try not to.  Small market teams get a pass for a while.  

we are a large market team that hasn't been quite as good as the yankees at rebuilding while staying competitive.  They're actually living off a couple of things.  Some highly shrewd trades of relievers which was quite brilliant.  The second is signing as many international prospects they could while there weren't restrictions.  A loophole that's been closed.  And finally, they drafted and traded well to create a nice young core of players at the major league level. 

The international loophole being close is huge.  

So, going forward, you're going to need to be smart.  You can't get there anymore without Lorenzo Cain, Eric Hosmer, Jose Altuve, Carlos Correa, Chris Bryant, Anthony Rizzo, Kyle Hendricks, Jake Arrieta, and the supplementation with Lester and Verlander and Morales, and Cueto.  

Is Billy smart?  Valbuena, Cozart, Espinosa, Maybin, Kinsler make him look like he needs work.  What about rebuilding the worst farm ever.  seriously.  ever.  in less than 3 years to top 3rd?  Or wooing the best international players ever?  

Could he be more successful on those short term deals?  sure. But is that what is going to make or break this franchise?  

2018 sucks so far.  There's a lot I'm not happy about.  But maybe he doesn't have our fan glasses on.  Maybe he felt it probable that the Astros would win 95+ games and that our best chance was to sneak into a WC slot with 87 wins.  Maybe that's why he didn't commit money and prospects to a low probability outcome.  

If all went right, we'd be 3-5 games back right now.  That was best case.  But damn I'm glad he didn't trade Adell and Canning for Cesar Hernandez.  

There's one way for him to look really really smart right now.  It's to turn a 2 year window into a 7 year window.  And we all know how that happens.  

 

[Angel Oracle]

9 hours ago, The Boogie Man said:

Look at Cots they’re both spending $166m.  Arods contract was awful, Ellsbury, CC, Tex.  All bad contracts.   They won in 2009 so it lessens how some may feel but ARod sued the team and was Suspended.  CC entered alcohol rehab and was bad for most of the last five years.  Ellsbury is $160 million 5th outfielder.  

After this season, Ellsbury’s is the only terrible contract, although Stanton’s remains to be seen.

[GrittyVeterans]

Nothing comes close to the amount of wasted financial resources the dodgers have put out over the past 20 years. And they have zero to show for it. It’s beautiful. The Yankees and Red Sox won their rings so it’s hard to argue

the dodgers getting better about it with Friedman but for a long time that has been one waste of money after another.

[Inside Pitch]

10 hours ago, Dochalo said:

we had two in a row because Arte was 'going for it'.  Nothing compared to the waste the yankees and dogs have laid out over the last 10 years or so and for the yanks, it was way worse than that prior.  More than doubling the avg of the rest of the top 5 in a couple seasons  

People forget how attempting to emulate the Yankees' FA spending negatively impacted this franchise.  

Also, given how much Angels fans whine about the costs of going to games it's doubtful they would be willing to elevate the amount of money they would be willing to spend to attend games.  https://www.statista.com/statistics/202611/fan-cost-index-of-the-major-league-baseball/

There is more than one way to skin a cat, and even the Yankees altered how they conducted business to one where they prioritized spending on the farm system and building from within..  The changes to the draft and international signings effectively ended what the Yankees and Dodgers had been doing in Latin America and drafting hard signs -- so, other than throwing a ton of money at FAs; building the farm is really the only option teams including the Yankees have anymore.  But, if elevating means spending the money the Yanks do on area scouts, foreign scouts, and in building facilities in Latin America then sure ...  

All that being said -- @Dtwncbad is right in saying that the team can't just sit back and wait for the farm to produce -- it will need to spend at some point or use assets to get players it wants..  Let's hope they make better choices when they do.

Edit: I could have just kept reading and agreed with @Dochalo

Edited July 10, 2018 by Inside Pitch

[T.G.]

11 hours ago, tdawg87 said:

I would say they are. Spending a ton of money AND having a consistent, quality farm system? 

Also, if we want to get literal they've won more WS Championships in the last 2 decades than any other team.

I said last two decades, but I'm really thinking since 2000.  The Red Sox and Giants have been more successful recently. 

In any case - this is a good topic and lots of great posts on the subject.

As others have basically said - it's not about spending, it's about spending wisely.

The Angels are never going to be the Yankees - they will never have the same resources.  The YES network allows them to really spend as they wish, but even the Yankees are trying to be more fiscally responsible.

[Dick B Back]

6 hours ago, Dochalo said:

the luxury tax started in 1997 but it was sort of half assed.  It went away till 2003 when the threshold was created.  The yankees have won a single WS title in that time.  2009 because fuentes threw Arod a fastball.  

They've paid out $319.6 mil in taxes during that period.  Not payroll, but taxes.  

On top of that, their WS teams before that had a tremendous core of home grown talent.  They just had amazing flexibility in supplementing that core.  

no one has bought themselves a WS victory in that time.  Yes, teams that spend more money typically give themselves a better chance.  

but look at the new narrative in baseball.  It's the same as the old one.  penalties, restrictions, taxes, caps etc. force you to build from within.  Teams with more financial flexibility can extend their window or shorten the internal of a rebuild.  

big market teams try to stay competitive during their rebuild.  maybe win 87 games and sneak into the playoffs.  trying to maintain their fanbase.  they might have to endure a couple 90+ loss seasons in the interim.  But they try not to.  Small market teams get a pass for a while.  

we are a large market team that hasn't been quite as good as the yankees at rebuilding while staying competitive.  They're actually living off a couple of things.  Some highly shrewd trades of relievers which was quite brilliant.  The second is signing as many international prospects they could while there weren't restrictions.  A loophole that's been closed.  And finally, they drafted and traded well to create a nice young core of players at the major league level. 

The international loophole being close is huge.  

So, going forward, you're going to need to be smart.  You can't get there anymore without Lorenzo Cain, Eric Hosmer, Jose Altuve, Carlos Correa, Chris Bryant, Anthony Rizzo, Kyle Hendricks, Jake Arrieta, and the supplementation with Lester and Verlander and Morales, and Cueto.  

Is Billy smart?  Valbuena, Cozart, Espinosa, Maybin, Kinsler make him look like he needs work.  What about rebuilding the worst farm ever.  seriously.  ever.  in less than 3 years to top 3rd?  Or wooing the best international players ever?  

Could he be more successful on those short term deals?  sure. But is that what is going to make or break this franchise?  

2018 sucks so far.  There's a lot I'm not happy about.  But maybe he doesn't have our fan glasses on.  Maybe he felt it probable that the Astros would win 95+ games and that our best chance was to sneak into a WC slot with 87 wins.  Maybe that's why he didn't commit money and prospects to a low probability outcome.  

If all went right, we'd be 3-5 games back right now.  That was best case.  But damn I'm glad he didn't trade Adell and Canning for Cesar Hernandez.  

There's one way for him to look really really smart right now.  It's to turn a 2 year window into a 7 year window.  And we all know how that happens.  

 

Hands down best post in this thread. Nice @Dochalo!

[stormngt]

13 hours ago, tdawg87 said:

I would say they are. Spending a ton of money AND having a consistent, quality farm system? 

Also, if we want to get literal they've won more WS Championships in the last 2 decades than any other team.

Yes, the have won more championships within the last 20 years.

However I believe the Red Sox and, Giants have won more this century! Hell they have only won 1 more than the Angel's this century!

 

 

[stormngt]

13 hours ago, UndertheHalo said:

Oh did they ? I don’t recall .280 OPS Arod in the middle of the Yankees line up. 

Albert's OPS is not 280! Do you mean OBS?

[Stradling]

I don’t know what OBS is but I have seen Storm type it twice.

[hangin n wangin]

5 minutes ago, The Boogie Man said:

I don’t know what OBS is but I have seen Storm type it twice.

On base slugging. Duh.. Because Pujols is a slug on the base paths.

[Tank]

13 hours ago, The Boogie Man said:

They dropped of Anaheim 3 years ago.

wait, what? how come i never heard anything about this?

[stormngt]

7 minutes ago, The Boogie Man said:

I don’t know what OBS is but I have seen Storm type it twice.

Isnt OPS = on base % +slugging?

And my bad I meant OBP

[T.G.]

Obviously...

OBS = Offensive Bull Sh!t and @stormngt is the only qualified person to figure our this statistic.  I'll let him explain his process.

[Stradling]

10 minutes ago, Tank said:

wait, what? how come i never heard anything about this?

I don’t know, I read about it recently.  They simply sent out a press release and dropped the “of Anaheim”.

[floplag]

I think any fan of any team would like to see that team elevated.  
I also think we have made an effort in that regard to a point, and that it just hasnt worked out as much as we had hoped it would and that may have left it harder to do much more impactful things. 
Weve been carrying one or more albatross contracts for the last decade or more, thats a lot to overcome.
 

[Taylor]

1 hour ago, The Boogie Man said:

I don’t know, I read about it recently.  They simply sent out a press release and dropped the “of Anaheim”.

Curt Pringle retired to the Poconos.

[Stradling]

6 minutes ago, Taylor said:

Curt Pringle retired to the Poconos.

Yea, he was a real joy.

[stanick88]

12 hours ago, Scotty@AW said:

The thing is, you don't have to be like the Yankees to win a World Series.

Look at the Giants. Three world championships in five years.

How did they do it? Spending wisely, not relying on superstars but getting consistent production across the board, consistent infusion of minor league talent, great rotation and bullpen, good health and good fortune. 

Basically the exact opposite of the Angels.

We've spent unwisely (Pujols, Hamilton, Wells, Matthews Jr., Pineiro, Blanton, the back half of Weav and Wilson's contracts), we have a couple good players (Trout, Simmons, Ohtani, Upton to an extent) and the rest of the lineup is utter garbage, we haven't had prospect assistance thanks to Dipoto until this year, and while we have a great rotation, it's been absolutely decimated by injuries (moreso than any team in baseball this year and the past three) and our bullpen is a disaster.

So how do we fix it and take the next step forward as an organization. 

I think as Ben Solo put it, "Let the past die."

That means letting go of the past, cutting ties with what came before 2019 if it isn't going to help the team.

Convince Pujols it's time to hang them up and move into a coaching or front office role, and if he isn't ok with that, then cut ties. Either way, he can't take up a roster spot any longer.

Don't pick up Valbuena's option. We've all seen enough. Don't get me wrong, we love his clubhouse presence, but the on-field production isn't where it needs to be.

Let Thaiss take over full time 1B, let Fernandez take over part time DH when Ohtani isn't hitting and promote Taylor Ward to play third base. Remember, we don't need superstars at every position, we just need steady contributors, someone that won't be a black hole. That's what you get in Thaiss, Ward and Fernandez, consistent hitters that can do a little bit of everything and are vast improvements over Pujols, Valbuena and whoever else.

Say bye bye to Kinsler in FA. What can we say, he's been a great player for a long time but time catches up with all of us. He's a shell of the star he once was. But I will say this, seeing him play for the Angels this year has redeemed him in my eyes. He's not as big of a jerk as I thought now that I've had a chance to watch him play everyday.

Move Cozart across the diamond to second base and have him battle David Fletcher for the starting spot. Loser takes the UTIL position. I don't can't about his contract, the best players need to play and he'll need to outplay Fletcher, a total gamer that has been outplaying more noticed athletes his entire life.

Trade Calhoun and either sign or trade for a more productive short term option in RF. Again, like the Giants, this doesn't have to be a star, but it does need to be someone that can produce, play acceptable D and when Adell/Marsh are ready in 2 years, step aside.

Bring back Garrett Richards. He's great friends with Trout who we want to keep around  for a long time, he pitches toward the front of the rotation, and if nothing else, he has low mileage on his arm.

Other than that, keep the rotation as is. Hopefully Ohtani is back healthy, keep Heaney, Skaggs and Barria. Take advantage of the depth we'll finally have in Meyer and Ramirez being healthy, Shoe's return and the presence of Canning and Suarez in AAA. 

Actually, just move Meyer and Ramirez into relief. They need that. And promote Canning in May to preserve an additional season on control. That kid will slot very nicely with Richards and Ohtani at the front of the rotation.

After moving Meyer and Ramirez into the bullpen, get rid of the holdovers that didn't perform, like Bedrosian and Noe Ramirez (not entirely Noe's fault he's been used incorrectly).

Spend any money we have coming off the books on relievers. Surround Scioscia or whoever is managing next year with so many options he can't screw it up.

After all of that, start throwing ridiculous sums of money at Trout and extend him for another decade.

If the Angels do all of that, they'll be hard to beat in 2019, and with the farm system Eppler is building, they'll be consistent contenders for very long time. 

It won't require spending like the Yanks or Dodgers, it will require bold moves, spending wisely and continuing to invest in the farm and not trading it away.

That's how the Angels elevate.

While i understand your approach,  i do not think a roster with that talent can achieve much success. I hope you are right and I am wrong. But I do not see a roster as you described being more than a second wild card challenger at best. And likely not even a roster that can achieve winning the second wild card. We are a few impact players away in my opinion. I agree on Cozart and fletcher battling it out, as well as convincing Pujols to retire. But throwing Ward, JMF,  and Thaiss is not likely to do much better than what is currently playing.