A bird in hand is worth. . .

[Stradling]

5 minutes ago, m0nkey said:

I love it when IP just comes in a thread and spits facts and proves people wrong

It’s the absolute best. 

[Griffey's Corner]

17 hours ago, tdawg87 said:

His ERA+ with SD is 153, which is excellent. His peripherals are also quite good. 

I agree with IP that he's not "the answer" but he would unquestionably help this bullpen. 

Frieri was even better for the Padres in his 2.5 years (right before the Angels acquired him) than Hand has been in his 2.5 years with the Padres..... Frieri worked out great for us.

[Griffey's Corner]

28 minutes ago, m0nkey said:

I love it when IP just comes in a thread and spits facts and proves people wrong

Except when he is wrong. To advocate Hand coming in here would be stupid.

 

Let me give you some facts.

1. Hand is not very good. 

2. His ERA is over 3 as a closer and he has cost the Padres quite a few games. If he was so great the Padres would not consider shopping him. Yankees never shopped Mariano Rivera.

3. Bedrosian has put up very similar numbers in his career and this year.

4. You guys should do a better job of understanding that when a player comes over from the NL they do not do as well in the AL. Especially pitchers. The DH alone adds about .75 to the average ERA. For some pitchers it affects more than others but the baseball consensus is that is ranges between .5 to a full run increase.  So Hand's ERA as a closer would be right around 4.... worse than what we have now.

5. You guys want to give up some premium prospects.... it will not be cheap to acquire him

6. THE SEASON IS OVER.

[Stradling]

I’ll take the guy that doesn’t walk 4.7 per 9 innings as a Padre.  

[Griffey's Corner]

1 minute ago, The Boogie Man said:

I’ll take the guy that doesn’t walk 4.7 per 9 innings as a Padre.  

What does it matter how he is giving up runs???? If he has a high ERA than he is failing. Who cares how he is failing. The guy is incredibly average.... why bring him in? Especially when the cost will be at a premium.

[Griffey's Corner]

4 minutes ago, Griffey's Corner said:

Except when he is wrong. To advocate Hand coming in here would be stupid.

 

Let me give you some facts.

1. Hand is not very good. 

2. His ERA is over 3 as a closer and he has cost the Padres quite a few games. If he was so great the Padres would not consider shopping him. Yankees never shopped Mariano Rivera.

3. Bedrosian has put up very similar numbers in his career and this year.

4. You guys should do a better job of understanding that when a player comes over from the NL they do not do as well in the AL. Especially pitchers. The DH alone adds about .75 to the average ERA. For some pitchers it affects more than others but the baseball consensus is that is ranges between .5 to a full run increase.  So Hand's ERA as a closer would be right around 4.... worse than what we have now.

5. You guys want to give up some premium prospects.... it will not be cheap to acquire him

6. THE SEASON IS OVER.

7. Hand's sample size of success is small.

8. Knowing the Angels medical staff he will come here and his arm will fall off.... Just kidding.

9. Change for change sake is stupid. If you are the GM you stay the course and do not overpay and panic just because the fan base is incredibly over reactionary. That is not the way to build a team.

[Stradling]

Just now, Griffey's Corner said:

Except when he is wrong. To advocate Hand coming in here would be stupid.

 

Let me give you some facts.

1. Hand is not very good. 

2. His ERA is over 3 as a closer and he has cost the Padres quite a few games. If he was so great the Padres would not consider shopping him. Yankees never shopped Mariano Rivera.

3. Bedrosian has put up very similar numbers in his career and this year.

4. You guys should do a better job of understanding that when a player comes over from the NL they do not do as well in the AL. Especially pitchers. The DH alone adds about .75 to the average ERA. For some pitchers it affects more than others but the baseball consensus is that is ranges between .5 to a full run increase.  So Hand's ERA as a closer would be right around 4.... worse than what we have now.

5. You guys want to give up some premium prospects.... it will not be cheap to acquire him

6. THE SEASON IS OVER.

I like how FACT 1. Is Hand is not very good.   Sorry but comparing Hand to Cam Bedrosian makes you look like a complete moron.  Hand as a reliever has a WHIP just over 1, and an ERA just over 3.  Bedrosian has a WHIP of 1.4 and an ERA of 3.86.  

[Stradling]

3 minutes ago, Griffey's Corner said:

What does it matter how he is giving up runs???? If he has a high ERA than he is failing. Who cares how he is failing. The guy is incredibly average.... why bring him in? Especially when the cost will be at a premium.

Why do you think the cost will be a premium?  Because GMs that are paid to decide value think he is worth the price.  

[m0nkey]

I don't know who's arguing to get Hand but I only skimmed the thread, but to say he isn't good is ridiculous

[Stradling]

1 minute ago, m0nkey said:

I don't know who's arguing to get Hand but I only skimmed the thread, but to say he isn't good is ridiculous

But its a fact.  Fact 1 to be precise.  

[Make Angels Great Again]

11 minutes ago, Griffey's Corner said:

Except when he is wrong. To advocate Hand coming in here would be stupid.

  

 Let me give you some facts.

1. Hand is not very good. 

 2. His ERA is over 3 as a closer and he has cost the Padres quite a few games. If he was so great the Padres would not consider shopping him. Yankees never shopped Mariano Rivera.

 3. Bedrosian has put up very similar numbers in his career and this year.

 4. You guys should do a better job of understanding that when a player comes over from the NL they do not do as well in the AL. Especially pitchers. The DH alone adds about .75 to the average ERA. For some pitchers it affects more than others but the baseball consensus is that is ranges between .5 to a full run increase.  So Hand's ERA as a closer would be right around 4.... worse than what we have now.

5. You guys want to give up some premium prospects.... it will not be cheap to acquire him

 6. THE SEASON IS OVER.

 

Good God...those aren't facts, they're either misinformed or willfully ignorant opinions. Let's address these one at a time, because i'm bored.

1. Hand is very good, he's a 28 year old lefty with outstanding peripherals, it's a good idea to look at his last 3 seasons, where has has a 2.67 ERA, 1.03 WHIP, and 11.8 K/9, 3.1 BB/9, 6.3 H/9. To say he's not very good is just stupid.

2. Well, the Yankees never shopped Mariano Rivera because they were consistently competitive throughout his career with them, why the F would they want to trade him?

3. Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah. No.

4. I'd like to see your source for this, sounds like complete BS.

5. That's a more reasonable topic of discussion, he'll come a top 10 prospect probably, plus another guy in maybe the top 30, then some fringe guy.

6. He's under control for the next 3 seasons after this one.

 

[Griffey's Corner]

1 minute ago, The Boogie Man said:

I like how FACT 1. Is Hand is not very good.   Sorry but comparing Hand to Cam Bedrosian makes you look like a complete moron.  Hand as a reliever has a WHIP just over 1, and an ERA just over 3.  Bedrosian has a WHIP of 1.4 and an ERA of 3.86.  

Than you have not been reading what I have been saying & your reading comprehension is not good. Put Hand in the AL and watch those numbers go up. You would think some of you would learn from past mistakes like Fuentes & Frieri & Salas. Bedrosian is actually a little bit better than what Hand will do. Bedrosian's 3.38 ERA in the AL this year is a better performance than Hand's 3.12 ERA in the NL.

 

I am sorry I do not want my closer to have an ERA over 4 with a lifetime winning % at .315..... call me crazy. I do not see the Angels prescribing to your thoughts and theories and acquiring Hand.

If you bring Hand in as a closer to the AL with the better lineups, the DH, the smaller ballparks, and put him in a more pressure environment than San Diego..... his ERA would be at or above 4.

[Stradling]

1 minute ago, Griffey's Corner said:

Than you have not been reading what I have been saying & your reading comprehension is not good. Put Hand in the AL and watch those numbers go up. You would think some of you would learn from past mistakes like Fuentes & Frieri & Salas. Bedrosian is actually a little bit better than what Hand will do. Bedrosian's 3.38 ERA in the AL this year is a better performance than Hand's 3.12 ERA in the NL.

 

I am sorry I do not want my closer to have an ERA over 4 with a lifetime winning % at .315..... call me crazy. I do not see the Angels prescribing to your thoughts and theories and acquiring Hand.

If you bring Hand in as a closer to the AL with the better lineups, the DH, the smaller ballparks, and put him in a more pressure environment than San Diego..... his ERA would be at or above 4.

Or it wouldn’t be.  FACT!!!

[Griffey's Corner]

12 minutes ago, The Boogie Man said:

Why do you think the cost will be a premium?  Because GMs that are paid to decide value think he is worth the price.  

The cost will be at a premium because some GM's panic. It only takes 2.... fictitious or real competitors to drive the price.  You have guys like Dipoto who trade Grichuk for Salas straight across..... just because a GM does the trade.... does not mean they were correct.

[Make Angels Great Again]

Here's a fun stat, win probability added over last 3 years:

Bedrosian (by the way this includes his fluky 2016): negative 0.7

Hand: 6.5

[Griffey's Corner]

15 minutes ago, m0nkey said:

I don't know who's arguing to get Hand but I only skimmed the thread, but to say he isn't good is ridiculous

If you did not read the post than you have no business commenting on the post.

[m0nkey]

Just now, Griffey's Corner said:

If you did not read the post than you have no business commenting on the post.

I read the post where you said he was not good, I did not read the thread.  If you can not differentiate "then" and "than", THEN you have no business commenting 

[Stradling]

Just now, Griffey's Corner said:

If you did not read the post than you have no business commenting on the post.

No offense, but most of us here respect IP and quite frankly he is right far more than he is wrong.  This opinion we have of him is from about 15 years of being on this or other message boards with him.  So when you choose to go against him, which you have every right to do, then you do it by calling opinions facts, well, you could probably assume how we will react.  Also, you are simply wrong.  

[Griffey's Corner]

4 minutes ago, The Boogie Man said:

Or it wouldn’t be.  FACT!!!

People who actually do this for a living. Who know a sh..... ton more than you have time and time again have said that the DH alone will cause a pitcher's ERA to go up .5 to a full run. 

 

If you do not want to believe them.... Bill James, etc.... than just go back for the last 30 years. go back the last 40 years and look at the FACTS.

[Make Angels Great Again]

Looking at win % and ERA alone at a reliever is retarded.

[Make Angels Great Again]

By the way, from what i've found if you look at WPA over the last 3 years Hand is a top 5 MLB reliever just behind the likes of Chapman, Kimbrel, Jansen, and Miller.

[Griffey's Corner]

12 minutes ago, The Boogie Man said:

No offense, but most of us here respect IP and quite frankly he is right far more than he is wrong.  This opinion we have of him is from about 15 years of being on this or other message boards with him.  So when you choose to go against him, which you have every right to do, then you do it by calling opinions facts, well, you could probably assume how we will react.  Also, you are simply wrong.  

LOL.... yeah buddy if you want to piggyback off someone else's opinion as your MAIN point be my guest. And no I am not wrong. I gave you guys plenty of statistics (these are FACTS)  to back up the claim that Hand is average..... The only stat you gave as a proponent of Hand is well he gives up runs but not via walks. My response to that is who gives a SH.. how the runs come in.

 

I don't see the Angels acquiring him for the 8-9 reasons I gave.... so who's side of the fence do you want to sit on? You can agree with your buddy OR you can go with the facts & that the people who do this for a living are seeing the same information that I am. 

 

I hope you all enjoy your 4th of July. And stay safe. We can talk later.

[Make Angels Great Again]

Just now, Griffey's Corner said:

 I gave you guys plenty of statistics (these are FACTS)  to back up the claim that Hand is average..... The only stat you gave as a proponent of Hand is well he gives up runs but not via walks. My response to that is who gives a SH.. how the runs come in.

 

You gave a shitty opinion that doesn't hold up based on poor measurement techniques.

[Griffey's Corner]

9 minutes ago, Make Angels Great Again said:

Looking at win % and ERA alone at a reliever is retarded.

ERA is the BEST stat when gauging a pitcher's performance..... always has been.... always will.

and while I do not get caught up in wins and losses too much..... after all isn't the bottom line.... did you win the game? QB's in football are judged and looked at by wins and losses.

[Make Angels Great Again]

1 minute ago, Griffey's Corner said:

 ERA is the BEST stat when gauging a pitcher's performance..... always has been.... always will.

and while I do not get caught up in wins and losses too much..... after all isn't the bottom line.... did you win the game? QB's in football are judged and looked at by wins and losses.

 

This is probably the argument fossils like Peter Gammons use, people have gotten smarter, and there are better ways to gauge a pitchers performance.

ERA is more valid for starting pitchers, it's semi valid for relievers though, because of the fact that they pitch 1/4 or 1/3 of the innings that starters do, it's a much more volatile number. It doesn't give you a fully accurate picture of their overall performance. Comparing the ERA of Cam and Hand is a perfect example.