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A bird in hand is worth. . .


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42 minutes ago, Inside Pitch said:

  Forest for the trees time..   How much better would the Angels be right now with Major league average performances from 1B, 2B, 3B, RF, and the bullpen?   Players don't have to be superstars to be quality MLB players.   
 

This cant be said enough. 

If you take away upton, its been years (hamilton) since we signed someone to be a star. Aside from trades for pitching, weve scraped just to get average players from elsewhere. We were snakebit pitching wise, so that was kind of too much.

But when you look back at the joyce's, giovatella, espinozas, ibanez,etc etc, weve had to go out and sign guys who arent very good to begin with simply because we lacked in house average joes. Its been pretty pathetic to be honest.

Trout and calhoun are our only home grown starters right now...and its been like that for quite a few years, with the exception of cron. Lets say cron was still here. And we had a few more like him, that we grew in house. Wed still have been far better off than we have been in recent years.

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1 hour ago, The Boogie Man said:

Last year we drafted Adell, he is now MLB.coms 13 ranked prospect in all of baseball.  He was drafted 10th.  We currently have 4 other guys, none of them drafted in the top ten, that are all in MLB.coms top 100.  So we have 5 of the top 100 prospects.  There is value to what Eppler is doing.  He is building a sustainable team, that when they have a need can call someone up instead of paying for it in free agency.  

Now if we want to go way back and complain we didn’t trade Brandon Wood or Mathis or Adenhart or McPherson, that is fine we can complain about that, but honestly if we traded them, it is no way close to guaranteed those players would still be here.  Brandon Wood was 8 or 9 years ago.  We haven’t had a farm good enough or ranked high enough to help the major league team.  

I have no idea what Marsh, Canning, Maitan, Adell, Suarez, Thiass, Fletcher, Ward, or any other guy will turn in to.  I just don’t know if trading them for relievers is the way to go.  Sure they may not pan out to be anything, but if we trade the wrong one for anything other than a long term player, I just think we are going the wrong way.  If it does work out, well then we can either create a team around Trout or we can survive his exit.  

And thats still not remotely close to what the Hou/Chi decades of top drafts had, and you know it. 
And as i said there are a couple, but a couple doesnt fill the roster anytime soon does it?   How do you suggest we fill in the blanks?

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2 minutes ago, floplag said:

And thats still not remotely close to what the Hou/Chi decades of top drafts had, and you know it. 
And as i said there are a couple, but a couple doesnt fill the roster anytime soon does it?   How do you suggest we fill in the blanks?

Dude, just stop.  You keep saying things that aren’t true.  Decades of top drafts, you are delusional or lying.  So they have a better major league team and probably a better minor league team, but development has to start somewhere.  Yet you would rather they trade that for whatever major leaguer you can find, then bitch about not having a farm.  It’s old flop.  

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1 hour ago, Inside Pitch said:

And both these scenarios fail to consider the value the team got out of keeping their players.   Salmon, Glaus, Molina, Shields, Erstad, Glaus, Edmonds, Anderson, Napoli, K-Rod, Kendrick, Aybar, Morales, Lackey, Weaver, Washburn, Percival, Trout were all home grown talents that essentially made for the core of the team for almost two decades.   How many of those guys were over-valued?   

Is everyone really talking about the Hou/Chi model?  I ask because is there anyone that actually believes the Angels are following that model??   

But since you bring it up...  look at the names I mentioned above.   All of two of them were top 10 picks -- Glaus and Erstad.   Tim Salmon was a 3rd rounder.  Anderson a 4th.  Edmonds 7th.  Kendrick a 10th, Napoli 17th round, Molina went undrafted out of college.  Washburn was a 2nd rounder.  Lackey was a 2nd rounder.  Shields 28th round.  Percy 6th.  Trout 1st round (26th), Weaver 1st (12th.     The bulk of the Angels golden era came from players taken outside of the top 10.   The strength of the system was it's depth -- when first rounders like Kotchman, Wood, Mathis, failed to live up their draft status the guys picked behind them were able to fill those roles.   
 

Forest for the trees time..   How much better would the Angels be right now with Major league average performances from 1B, 2B, 3B, RF, and the bullpen?   Players don't have to be superstars to be quality MLB players.   

I'm sure there are people here that are overvaluing our farm system, but let's not pretend everyone is delusional - there are many who are smart enough to understand that due to attrition, simply getting four MLB average players out of the top 20 would be considered a win for the farm system.  If one of them ends up being an all star level player it's a massive win.
 

going back 20 years to retired guys as part of this... well heck lets talk about the drafts in the 60s then... works for me, lol 

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1 minute ago, The Boogie Man said:

Dude, just stop.  You keep saying things that aren’t true.  Decades of top drafts, you are delusional or lying.  So they have a better major league team and probably a better minor league team, but development has to start somewhere.  Yet you would rather they trade that for whatever major leaguer you can find, then bitch about not having a farm.  It’s old flop.  

yeah, only the results suggest im not.   but yes it is old

 

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1 minute ago, floplag said:

going back 20 years to retired guys as part of this... well heck lets talk about the drafts in the 60s then... works for me, lol 

Well you brought up hoarding prospects by Stoneman, which would have no impact on today’s team.  That was 3 GMs ago, but you somehow thought it was relevant.  

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Just now, floplag said:

yeah, only the results suggest im not.   but yes it is old

 

But you want them to do what would basically ensure mediocrity.  You’ve suggested trading to save this season a month ago, when prices would be very high.  

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Just now, floplag said:

whatever... lets keep losing, great plan, and once again any dissenting opinion isnt welcome.  good times 

Because I disagree doesn’t mean it isn’t welcome.  I disagree with you, get over it.  Do you cry like this when people disagree with you in the political forum, or do you put on your big boy pants and discuss things?  Sorry but IP basically tore apart your theories and the best you could come up with was a 20 year ago retort.  He’s not wrong.  

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1 hour ago, floplag said:

going back 20 years to retired guys as part of this... well heck lets talk about the drafts in the 60s then... works for me, lol 

Considering you gave no examples, made up a narrative about everyone talking about Houston/Chicago and basically just blathered on with the same tired opinions, I felt talking facts and discussing what's actually happened might add some perspective to things.  To each his own.   

Should I type LOL now?

 

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2 minutes ago, Inside Pitch said:

Considering you gave no examples, made up a narrative about everyone talking about Houston/Chicago and basically just blathered on with the same tired opinions, I felt talking facts and discussing what's actually happened might add some perspective to things.  To each his own.   

Should I type LOL now?

 

No you proved your point to people paying attention.  The ones who aren’t victims.  

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1 hour ago, The Boogie Man said:

Well you brought up hoarding prospects by Stoneman, which would have no impact on today’s team.  That was 3 GMs ago, but you somehow thought it was relevant.  

Comedy gold isn't it?

I respond to what he brought up and then he chides me for talking about 20 years ago.

iron man eye roll GIF

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11 hours ago, floplag said:

whatever... lets keep losing, great plan, and once again any dissenting opinion isnt welcome.  good times 

Do you ever get tired of tilting at windmills?  You do this martyr routine in every thread where someone disagrees with you.

Don't look now but the people wanting the team to make trades to save this year seem to outnumber those who don't -- your's is not the dissenting opinion, Snowflake.

Are you gonna fall back on the "being attacked" dramatics now?

Edited by Inside Pitch
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4 hours ago, The Boogie Man said:

Last year we drafted Adell, he is now MLB.coms 13 ranked prospect in all of baseball.  He was drafted 10th.  We currently have 4 other guys, none of them drafted in the top ten, that are all in MLB.coms top 100.  So we have 5 of the top 100 prospects.  There is value to what Eppler is doing.  He is building a sustainable team, that when they have a need can call someone up instead of paying for it in free agency.  

Now if we want to go way back and complain we didn’t trade Brandon Wood or Mathis or Adenhart or McPherson, that is fine we can complain about that, but honestly if we traded them, it is no way close to guaranteed those players would still be here.  Brandon Wood was 8 or 9 years ago.  We haven’t had a farm good enough or ranked high enough to help the major league team.  

I have no idea what Marsh, Canning, Maitan, Adell, Suarez, Thiass, Fletcher, Ward, or any other guy will turn in to.  I just don’t know if trading them for relievers is the way to go.  Sure they may not pan out to be anything, but if we trade the wrong one for anything other than a long term player, I just think we are going the wrong way.  If it does work out, well then we can either create a team around Trout or we can survive his exit.  

Agree 100%. Even if we get 4 Solid contributors out of that bunch, it’s worth holding onto them. We need to have a sustainable, affordable core group of guys to build around.

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49 minutes ago, Hufflepuff said:

Agree 100%. Even if we get 4 Solid contributors out of that bunch, it’s worth holding onto them. We need to have a sustainable, affordable core group of guys to build around.

Think about it like this...whens the last time we had 4 position players we developed?

Trout/calhoun/trumbo/conger? Maybe swap conger for cron?

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12 hours ago, Inside Pitch said:

I'm not one that sees Hand as the answer to everything hurting this team but you're offbase with with a few things. 

Petco isn't close to the most pitcher friendly park in MLB, not since they redid the OF dimensions and certainly not in any of the three years he's been a Padre.  His first year in SD, Petco ranked 12th in most runs scored, this year it ranks as the 5th best.   Also pointing to his ERA ignores that prior to becoming a Padre he was still being used as a SP -- which he proved he couldn't handle.   The move to the pen saw his K/9 rate double... that alone essentially changed who he was and none of which could be attributed to any park effects even if there had been any (there aren't).   

He's a world better than his career ERA and any argument that starts with raw ERA is blind to facts.

To each his own. If you want to trade away a bunch of stud prospects for a guy with a NL ERA of 4 along with a 17-37 record..... a career .315 winning percentage go for it. I am sure he will fit right in with the rest of the Angel pitchers. For you WAR guys his WAR this year is -0.3.

 

I guarantee you he comes over to the AL which has better teams, more bandbox parks, and the DH his ERA would be over 4 this year. Bedrosian puts up similar numbers and 90% of the board wants him gone. You guys make it sound like Hand is Mariano Rivera.... Hand has only been decent for the last 200 IP. And even with that it looks like he has blown a lot of games & saves with the Padres.

 

I am glad the board is not running the team. After a win most members are saying here come the playoffs.... after every loss it's the Angels suck. Incredibly over reactionary. 

 

Lets just stick to facts. The Angels are 43-43. They are 12.5 GB of the 2nd WC. The 2nd WC.... they would have to leapfrog several teams not just the Mariners. In there last 70 games they have gone 30-40..... & they are a worse team now than before they started this nifty little 70 game run. As far as making the playoffs this year the season is over. The best thing Eppler can do is start playing for 2019 & 2020.

 

Before we traded for Street who before he played with the Padres his career ERA was around 3.5 With the Padres his ERA was around 2. and than with the Angels he goes back to an ERA of around 3.5-4.0.

 

Ernesto Frieri put up an ERA of around 2 for 2.5 seasons with the Padres.... even better numbers than Hand's 2.5 seasons. Frieri than comes to the Angels and puts up an ERA of around 4 in his time with the Angels.

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10 hours ago, Inside Pitch said:

Considering you gave no examples, made up a narrative about everyone talking about Houston/Chicago and basically just blathered on with the same tired opinions, I felt talking facts and discussing what's actually happened might add some perspective to things.  To each his own.   

Should I type LOL now?

 

no

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Hand has struggled recently, ERA now at 3.15.   Does have almost 1.5 Ks per inning, but also 15 BBs in just 40 innings although WHIP is still a solid 1.10.

Let’s hope a couple of those college pitchers, amongst a ton of them taken in rounds 3-13, can become solid MLB relievers.

Put Shoe and Meyer in the pen from now on, once healthy and good to pitch.

Hope that Anderson learns location, because the stuff is certainly there.

Parker is fine, as a 3rd option in the pen.

BadRock has looked like BedRock since June 1, except for when pitching the 9th inning.

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12 hours ago, Dick B Back said:

Twins are toast so what would it cost for Zach Duke? I’m guessing not much since he’s a rental.

Why would we need a half season rental, at this point? The season is basically over.

Let's regroup. Trade Kinsler and Valbuena and Richards for whatever we can get for them. Maintain our farm. Actually, call up Ward and Thaiss and maybe Canning,

If Duke continues to pitch well this year, we can sign him as a FA. MINN probably wont extend him a QO.

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6 minutes ago, Angel Oracle said:

Hand has struggled recently, ERA now at 3.15.   Does have almost 1.5 Ks per inning, but also 15 BBs in just 40 innings although WHIP is still a solid 1.10.

Let’s hope a couple of those college pitchers, amongst a ton of them taken in rounds 3-13, can become solid MLB relievers.

Put Shoe and Meyer in the pen from now on, once healthy and good to pitch.

Hope that Anderson learns location, because the stuff is certainly there.

Parker is fine, as a 3rd option in the pen.

BadRock has looked like BedRock since June 1, except for when pitching the 9th inning.

What the hell is going on with Shoe? I cant remember. Is it arm related? 

I like the idea of Shoe and Meyer in the pen. In fact, the pen should be our top priority this offseason.

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Shoe had surgery to repair a split tendon in his forearm about 5-6 weeks ago.   Should be starting to throw off of a flat surface before the end of the month.  At that point, just have him come back as if he is a reliever.   That sick splitter has late innings written all over it.

 

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1 hour ago, WeatherWonk said:

Why would we need a half season rental, at this point? The season is basically over.

Let's regroup. Trade Kinsler and Valbuena and Richards for whatever we can get for them. Maintain our farm. Actually, call up Ward and Thaiss and maybe Canning,

If Duke continues to pitch well this year, we can sign him as a FA. MINN probably wont extend him a QO.

Yeah, but I still watch games and it would be easier on my eyes.

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