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A bird in hand is worth. . .


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Peter Bourjos is again looking for a job after failing again at the major leafye level.

Bourjos is very good example of a guy most Angel fans probably thought would more than adequately fill an everyday role for the Angels.

The Angels have impressively restocked the farm over the last couple if years, but it is important to acknowledge that it is likely that many of the prospects will not end up productive major leaguers.

There are a couple of bodies that are just too athletic with high ceilings to trade away.

But the overwhelming majority of Angels top 20 prospects are a roll of the dice.

I would absolutely welcome packaging some of the gamble prospects for "a bird in the hand" proven everyday regular that is an above average contributor.

I know the Angels are not really in it this year but if at the trade deadline they can acquire someone they can count on beyond 2018, they should do it.

There was no value in hoarding Wood, Kotchman, Greene. . .

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23 minutes ago, Dtwncbad said:

Peter Bourjos is again looking for a job after failing again at the major leafye level.

Bourjos is very good example of a guy most Angel fans probably thought would more than adequately fill an everyday role for the Angels.

The Angels have impressively restocked the farm over the last couple if years, but it is important to acknowledge that it is likely that many of the prospects will not end up productive major leaguers.

There are a couple of bodies that are just too athletic with high ceilings to trade away.

But the overwhelming majority of Angels top 20 prospects are a roll of the dice.

I would absolutely welcome packaging some of the gamble prospects for "a bird in the hand" proven everyday regular that is an above average contributor.

I know the Angels are not really in it this year but if at the trade deadline they can acquire someone they can count on beyond 2018, they should do it.

There was no value in hoarding Wood, Kotchman, Greene. . .

This is the part i keep coming back to, we have had FAR more failure of cant miss guys than successes, yet most here wouldnt trade any of them for almost anything that wasnt a rip off type deal.
We havent drafted high enough to follow the Astros/Cubs model everyone wants to refer to, thats a decade of top 5-10 picks, we arent drafting those kinds of guys. 
I think we put far too much value and assumption on these guys as reality tells us that at most maybe 1 or 2 will ever be more than an average major leaguer. 
At this point i agree the focus must be on longer term deals, weve already pissed away '18, which why more people arent far more angry about i dont get but thats another discussion.

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To me this season wasn’t pissed away, but I guess that’s up for debate.   After injuries set in even with a good bullpen like last year, we probably aren’t running down Seattle.   

For guys that have club control for two plus years beyond2018 I’d consider trading guys not named Adell and Canning.  

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4 minutes ago, laagamer said:

I'm confused what this post is about.

Are you saying we should sign Bourjos? That's a f*cking terrible idea. He's garbage. 

Are you saying we should trade away all our prospects for proven players because some of them a decade ago didn't work out?

Like, what is this post? 

I think it's about players at the major leafye level.

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2 hours ago, Dtwncbad said:

Peter Bourjos is again looking for a job after failing again at the major leafye level.

Bourjos is very good example of a guy most Angel fans probably thought would more than adequately fill an everyday role for the Angels.

The Angels have impressively restocked the farm over the last couple if years, but it is important to acknowledge that it is likely that many of the prospects will not end up productive major leaguers.

There are a couple of bodies that are just too athletic with high ceilings to trade away.

But the overwhelming majority of Angels top 20 prospects are a roll of the dice.

I would absolutely welcome packaging some of the gamble prospects for "a bird in the hand" proven everyday regular that is an above average contributor.

I know the Angels are not really in it this year but if at the trade deadline they can acquire someone they can count on beyond 2018, they should do it.

There was no value in hoarding Wood, Kotchman, Greene. . .

A couple of points...

1. PB was never a top prospect.

2. He started his career in MLB fairly successfully so he could have been counted as "MLB Proven."

3. The actual prospect in the PB deal was Grichuk and he's still in MLB. Not a star, but a very capable 4th outfielder.

4. Veterans fail too. There's no such thing as a bird in the hand. 

5. The failure rate shows why building depth on the farm is important. Even though Wood, Kotchman, and Mathis (still in MLB) were "busts", we still had Aybar, Morales, and Napoli. 

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Peter posted a 4.9 WAR season in 2011 so you can see how some might have viewed him as a valuable piece.  In 2012, he started slow and overall had a "meh" season. He had a brief resurgence in the 1st half of 2013 (.333 .392 OBP .849 OPS) but he was hit by a pitch off his wrist and it derailed his season and required surgery in the off season.  Dude had some talent, thought he and Grichuk could be leveraged for more than Freese and Salas but that's more on Dipoto.

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1 hour ago, laagamer said:

I'm confused what this post is about.

Are you saying we should sign Bourjos? That's a f*cking terrible idea. He's garbage. 

Are you saying we should trade away all our prospects for proven players because some of them a decade ago didn't work out?

Like, what is this post? 

Classic message board.

If you just read the post it is not confusing.

There is no suggestion of signing Bourjos.

And nobody said trade all our prospects.

The post says be careful with a strategy to hoard every prospect.  You get to decide which prospects are really elite and which are expendable.

And finally, you can learn from things that happened 10 years ago.

So basically 100% of YOUR post correctly deserves your own snarky question of "Like, what is this post?" 

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1 hour ago, eaterfan said:

A couple of points...

1. PB was never a top prospect.

2. He started his career in MLB fairly successfully so he could have been counted as "MLB Proven."

3. The actual prospect in the PB deal was Grichuk and he's still in MLB. Not a star, but a very capable 4th outfielder.

4. Veterans fail too. There's no such thing as a bird in the hand. 

5. The failure rate shows why building depth on the farm is important. Even though Wood, Kotchman, and Mathis (still in MLB) were "busts", we still had Aybar, Morales, and Napoli. 

Can everyone who is a knowledgeable Angel fan understand that idiot Dipoto did not trade Bourjos for Grichuk. It was FERNANDO SALAS for Grichuk straight across. If you do not believe me I have attached the link with the article that proves this.

https://www.stltoday.com/sports/baseball/professional/bernie-grichuk-s-improvement-is-dramatic/article_e288e62f-bc05-5607-99a7-264e457aa31c.html

 

 

Yeah Grichuk has a low batting average but if you give that kid 600 at bats he would hit 40 HR's play good defense and steal some bases.

 

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I think you have a case of two extremes with the Angels in the past decade in Stoneman, who wouldn't trade anyone, to Dipoto, who'd gut the farm system for a vet.

Look at Dipoto most recent trade with the Rays - he gives up two solid, young (20, 24) SP prospects for a an iffy Colome, who hasn't really been dominant since 2016, and a solid Denard Span, who is older (34) and has a team option of $12 mil at age 35 that the M's have to decide if they want to pick up.   The team itself has a core that is signed for a bit (Gordon, Cano, Segura, Seager, Haniger) but there will be holes due to injuries and regression and there is nothing in AA or AAA to fill the void.

Eppler seems willing to trade when it calls for it and I think you'll start seeing some of that prospect currency spent with an eye towards 2019 and beyond.

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2 hours ago, eaterfan said:

A couple of points...

1. PB was never a top prospect.

2. He started his career in MLB fairly successfully so he could have been counted as "MLB Proven."

3. The actual prospect in the PB deal was Grichuk and he's still in MLB. Not a star, but a very capable 4th outfielder.

4. Veterans fail too. There's no such thing as a bird in the hand. 

5. The failure rate shows why building depth on the farm is important. Even though Wood, Kotchman, and Mathis (still in MLB) were "busts", we still had Aybar, Morales, and Napoli. 

Angel fans should know that veterans also fail!

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39 minutes ago, mulwin444 said:

I think you have a case of two extremes with the Angels in the past decade in Stoneman, who wouldn't trade anyone, to Dipoto, who'd gut the farm system for a vet.

Look at Dipoto most recent trade with the Rays - he gives up two solid, young (20, 24) SP prospects for a an iffy Colome, who hasn't really been dominant since 2016, and a solid Denard Span, who is older (34) and has a team option of $12 mil at age 35 that the M's have to decide if they want to pick up.   The team itself has a core that is signed for a bit (Gordon, Cano, Segura, Seager, Haniger) but there will be holes due to injuries and regression and there is nothing in AA or AAA to fill the void.

Eppler seems willing to trade when it calls for it and I think you'll start seeing some of that prospect currency spent with an eye towards 2019 and beyond.

I think you are right.  I jave to trust Eppler until he shows me otherwise.

I am a bit of a broken record on this maybe, but I just cringe at these proposed lineups for 2020 that seem to assume a winning team just because there is a serviceable body to plug into four or five spots in the lineup.

If they are mostly just serviceable bodies, you end up with four or five spots in the lineup you really want  (need) to upgrade, and then what have you accomplished?

The Simmons deal to me is very encouraging if you think like I do.

Do that again.

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9 minutes ago, Dtwncbad said:

I think you are right.  I jave to trust Eppler until he shows me otherwise.

I am a bit of a broken record on this maybe, but I just cringe at these proposed lineups for 2020 that seem to assume a winning team just because there is a serviceable body to plug into four or five spots in the lineup.

If they are mostly just serviceable bodies, you end up with four or five spots in the lineup you really want  (need) to upgrade, and then what have you accomplished?

The Simmons deal to me is very encouraging if you think like I do.

Do that again.

They should probably try to do the Ohtani deal again, too.

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3 hours ago, The Boogie Man said:

To me this season wasn’t pissed away, but I guess that’s up for debate.   After injuries set in even with a good bullpen like last year, we probably aren’t running down Seattle.   

For guys that have club control for two plus years beyond2018 I’d consider trading guys not named Adell and Canning.  

no but were likely within 5 games and at least still part of the race if it was just the injuries, that i could totally live with.  To me this was pissed away and it was self inflicted, but you wont agree so its moot. 

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While its true MOST prospects fail, and perhaps you shouldnt hoard them, at the same time, this team over the last decade is a shining example of what happens when you have none.

Bourjos is mentioned here. He obviously didnt work out the way it looked like he would back in 11/12. Lots of guys just like him. But when you look at the crap weve trotted out there since 11/12, who weve hqd to sign from somewhere else....

There are very few guys weve graduated to the majors who stuck over the last several years. The better players who came up somewhere else either get extended by their home team or hit FA when they are older and more expensive.

So yeah, if the right deal is there, make it. But having no help coming from the farm is a recipe for disaster. Weve seen that first hand for 4 years now.

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23 minutes ago, floplag said:

no but were likely within 5 games and at least still part of the race if it was just the injuries, that i could totally live with.  To me this was pissed away and it was self inflicted, but you wont agree so its moot. 

Maybe it’s a six game difference, but highly doubtful.   The problem I have is what he did worked last year and didn’t work this year.  But pretending that signing free agents for the pen solves it is just not real life.   You can say, well at least they tried, but trying is expensive if you fail.   Bottom line is they have to develop those guys.  I’d be fine with a trade for Hand or Iglesias or one of the young guys in Miami.  It just makes more sense to get those guys when the prospect cost is less.  

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2 hours ago, Dtwncbad said:

Classic message board.

If you just read the post it is not confusing.

There is no suggestion of signing Bourjos.

And nobody said trade all our prospects.

The post says be careful with a strategy to hoard every prospect.  You get to decide which prospects are really elite and which are expendable.

And finally, you can learn from things that happened 10 years ago.

So basically 100% of YOUR post correctly deserves your own snarky question of "Like, what is this post?" 

You just read my post in a snarky way, brother.

I was just looking for clarification.

Take a breath.

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