Does Eppler realize how stupid this is?

[Angel Oracle]

Oh looked like Wade Davis in his prime against the Halos this weekend.    SEVEN K's in THREE innings????

Watson looked to be a perfect addition.    Billy?????

[Angel Oracle]

1 minute ago, Vladdylonglegs said:

Bud Norris becoming a lights out closer for half a season is the definition of luck.

He's been solid for St. Louis so far, too.

[Inside Pitch]

17 hours ago, Dochalo said:

Hansel Robles, Eduardo Paredes, Deck McGuire, Akeel Morris, Oliver Drake and a slew of others pitching meaningful innings for a team that's supposed to contend for a playoff spot?  

At least we didn't blow a save today.  

How can he justify this?  

I would like some thoughts on how this is ok?  

I don't think it's a matter of it being okay or not, I think the situation is what it is.  You watch the minors, we don't have those failed SP arms that have been in the system for years and are being transitioned to RPs to pull from.  It's the one area that is still legitimately barren and it blows because it's likely the one area where teams can most easily find in house solutions.  Beyond that, we both know that if he sticks to the formerly established saber mindset of how to build a BP, then you know he's likely going to stick to the process.   Personally, I think there was a shift in bullpen usage and that it caught Eppler a bit flat-footed.  This is painful right now, but we can only hope there is a method to the madness and we won't see a repeat of it next season.

[Angel Oracle]

I just hope they can take a few of those 3rd through 13th round draft pitching selections, and convert them to relief.    Rhoades and Stevens aren't too far away.  Jewell and Anderson both have the stuff, but need to refine their control issues.   Middleton, upon return, needs to work further to mix up his heat to different parts of the plate like Washburn did, to make up for a too flat heater.

[Inside Pitch]

17 hours ago, Dochalo said:

I wonder what Justin Upton and Andrelton Simmons (let alone Mike Trout) are thinking when Hansel Robles is towing the mound in the 10th after they fought their way back from 3 runs down twice.  

At some point you have to help the major league club win if they've got a chance.  Every game like this just erodes at whatever faith these guys have that they can pull off a spot in the playoffs.  

This is likely the lone area where the guy filling out the lineup card can still have some impact on what's happening.   He's the guy having to reassure them Eppler is going to do something, and the guy that has to scream the loudest that he owes it to the guys busting their asses to get them help.   But, Lasagna jokes.  People can mock the guy -- but he's never been shy to talk about the need for more pitching and I think given whats happened since 2011... he's talking about it more often than people here likely imagine.

[Angel Oracle]

While I'm sure the working relationship between Sosh and Eppler is significantly better than between Sosh and Dip*ssy, there has to be some issue being taken with what the bullpen has been reduced to. 

[Docwaukee]

we should try to grab Xavier Cedeno from the White Sox.  Seems like a nice bargain that we could get for cheap.  Maybe a low level prospect.  

[mulwin444]

1 minute ago, Dochalo said:

Addison Reed hasn't been great either with a 3.47 era and an FIP of 4.87.  He was a guy I was interested in.  

Tony Watson has been terrific for SF.  2/9.  He was another guy on the board late that I was a fan of (I also remember AO making a strong pitch for him)

Anthony Swarzak has be terrible.  2/14mil 

Joe Smith has been awful and he got 2/15

Juan Nicasio awful 2/17

Steve Cishek has been terrific.  2/13

Brandon Kintzler meh to poor.  2/10

Petit - decentish.  2/10

Hector Rondon has been terrific.  2/8.5

David Hernandez has been excellent.  2/5

Jared Hughes has been really good.  2/4.5

As much as it kills me to say this, Rodney has been a good bargain closer.  1/5

Craig Stammen - very good.  2/4.5

Bud Norris - solid/good 1/3

Seunghwan Oh - solid/good 1/2.75

Then a bunch of guys in the 1/1 to 1/2 range

Not good - Boone Logan, Jordan Lyles

Decent - Zach Duke, Tony Barnette, Jesse Chavez

 

So there was a bit of treasure among the landmines here.  

mostly in the deals costing about 2-4mil per season.  which, to be honest, was where I thought we'd shop.  

 

 

 

 

 

Agreed...I think he could have taken some low cost chances but maybe he felt he had the equivalent in-house...just pointing out some people's sure-things last season weren't so much and it's a bit of a crap shoot when it comes to closer/relief pitchers.

[Angel Oracle]

3 minutes ago, Dochalo said:

we should try to grab Xavier Cedeno from the White Sox.  Seems like a nice bargain that we could get for cheap.  Maybe a low level prospect.  

Never hurts to have a second lefty.   He is 30, and has meandered since 2011, but has great stats over a small 9 game sample so far.

[Docwaukee]

8 minutes ago, Inside Pitch said:

I don't think it's a matter of it being okay or not, I think the situation is what it is.  You watch the minors, we don't have those failed SP arms that have been in the system for years and are being transitioned to RPs to pull from.  It's the one area that is still legitimately barren and it blows because it's likely the one area where teams can most easily find in house solutions.  Beyond that, we both know that if he sticks to the formerly established saber mindset of how to build a BP, then you know he's likely going to stick to the process.   Personally, I think there was a shift in bullpen usage and that it caught Eppler a bit flat-footed.  This is painful right now, but we can only hope there is a method to the madness and we won't see a repeat of it next season.

maybe, but he was one of the guys who should have anticipated an increase in pen usage for his team.  So he had to have seen the trend.  

I actually think he got a little cocky.  

[Inside Pitch]

2 hours ago, Angel Oracle said:

WTF happened to the Indians’ pen?

Miller suddenly sucks.   McAlister suddenly sucks.   Allen has been meh. 

I don't ever get tired of saying how Scot Shields ruined Angel fans' perspective on bullpens.  The Angels sustained excellence was an anomaly.... but the constant in most of that was Shields... 

At some point the Angels will need to bite the bullet and try to sign a closer, the lone BP role that is relatively the same year in year out ...  the rest of the spots will likely always be a game of musical chairs with them moving the guys pitching well in and out of roles...    

We just don't have a lot of choices currently.

[T.G.]

21 minutes ago, Angel Oracle said:

 Billy?????

He's not here.  He hasn't been here.  He's not coming here.

[Dick B Back]

3 minutes ago, Dochalo said:

 cocky.  

@tdawg87?

[Inside Pitch]

24 minutes ago, Dochalo said:

maybe, but he was one of the guys who should have anticipated an increase in pen usage for his team.  So he had to have seen the trend.  

I actually think he got a little cocky.  

Maybe it was cockiness -- and I agree he should have seen it coming.  But I don't think he expected it to come all at once like it seemingly did this past off-season.  My honest opinion is that he didn't expect the free agent freeze out to be as bad as it was and he fully expected there to be a greater choice of guys to pick up -- then there wasn't.   It seemed like when everyone stopped chasing FA, they went right after BP arms.  Some teams no doubt were going according to plan, I think others jumped on the bandwagon as it developed..

Epp missed the boat.  I doubt it happens again.

Edited June 25, 2018 by Inside Pitch

[Inside Pitch]

2 hours ago, Rollinghard said:

I always thought when Noe Ramirez had a good outing, it was smoke and mirrors and lucky. His most effective pitch is his  backup slider. That can't be a good thing.

Sliders have graded out as the best pitch in baseball for several years..  Even in the age of launch angle.

[Inside Pitch]

2 hours ago, Erstad Grit said:

My take - I saw this coming, but epplers pen surprised me last year. I decided to trust he has an ability to spot free pen guys that are undervalued.  I'm now wondering if he got lucky last year. 

The success of the guys he picked up last year with their new teams, including the guys that we lost due to the numbers crunch argues it wasn't luck.   Norris, Petit and Hernandez have all remained effective RPs this year.  Kirby Yates has been otherwordly.  

[Inside Pitch]

35 minutes ago, Dochalo said:

Addison Reed hasn't been great either with a 3.47 era and an FIP of 4.87.  He was a guy I was interested in.  

Tony Watson has been terrific for SF.  2/9.  He was another guy on the board late that I was a fan of (I also remember AO making a strong pitch for him)

Anthony Swarzak has be terrible.  2/14mil 

Joe Smith has been awful and he got 2/15

Juan Nicasio awful 2/17

Steve Cishek has been terrific.  2/13

Brandon Kintzler meh to poor.  2/10

Petit - decentish.  2/10

Hector Rondon has been terrific.  2/8.5

David Hernandez has been excellent.  2/5

Jared Hughes has been really good.  2/4.5

As much as it kills me to say this, Rodney has been a good bargain closer.  1/5

Craig Stammen - very good.  2/4.5

Bud Norris - solid/good 1/3

Seunghwan Oh - solid/good 1/2.75

Then a bunch of guys in the 1/1 to 1/2 range

Not good - Boone Logan, Jordan Lyles

Decent - Zach Duke, Tony Barnette, Jesse Chavez

 

So there was a bit of treasure among the landmines here.  

mostly in the deals costing about 2-4mil per season.  which, to be honest, was where I thought we'd shop.  

 

People here won't appreciate me saying it but -- this list and the one you responded to are pretty much why saber minded GMs have always avoided spending on the BP...  

[eaterfan]

2 minutes ago, Inside Pitch said:

The success of the guys he picked up last year with their new teams, including the guys that we lost due to the numbers crunch argues it wasn't luck.   Norris, Petit and Hernandez have all remained effective RPs this year.  Kirby Yates has been otherwordly.  

I'm not sure... I think a lot of it is luck. And that being said, I think it's why Eppler has shied away from the big ticket relievers, because to a large extent all relief pitching is luck. There are very few guys who you can pencil in to be above average relievers 3 years in a row or even 3 out of 4 years. They definitely need some failed starting pitchers to fill those roles. But spending money on FA relievers isn't a foolproof plan either. The Rockies spent a ton on their pen last year.

[beatlesrule]

Let's not forget that Moreno signs the checks.  Maybe Eppler only had a certain amount of money to spend.  He needed to take care of too many problems thus the cheap bullpen plan.  Would you rather he didn't get 3 position players and sign 3 bullpen arms instead?  Cozart and Kinsler haven't worked out so far and hopefully Upton stays productive for another 4 1/2 years.  $ could very well be the reason Eppler did what he did with the pen.

[Inside Pitch]

8 minutes ago, eaterfan said:

I'm not sure... I think a lot of it is luck. And that being said, I think it's why Eppler has shied away from the big ticket relievers, because to a large extent all relief pitching is luck. There are very few guys who you can pencil in to be above average relievers 3 years in a row or even 3 out of 4 years. They definitely need some failed starting pitchers to fill those roles. But spending money on FA relievers isn't a foolproof plan either. The Rockies spent a ton on their pen last year.

You know..   I think it's fair to say it IS luck in the sense that the process points you towards guys and then you hope the volatility God's smile down on you that year.   Take the two lists people have put up -- it's hard to argue that any of those guys doing completely shit are shitty relievers but....  they sure have been shitty.   

Again, I think our issue is that we are still feeling the effects of having had a horse-dung farm system that lacked even failed started to convert to RPs..   When the volatility gods gave us the thumbs down -- we lacked the bodies to throw in there in hopes of getting "lucky".

Edited June 25, 2018 by Inside Pitch

[Dick B Back]

26 minutes ago, Inside Pitch said:

The success of the guys he picked up last year with their new teams, including the guys that we lost due to the numbers crunch argues it wasn't luck.   Norris, Petit and Hernandez have all remained effective RPs this year.  Kirby Yates has been otherwordly.  

Yep, and next year Drake, Morris, and Deck will probably be studs for someone else. Its all about timing with these flakey relievers.

[T.G.]

So... even Fernando Salas has a chance at being good some day?

[Dick B Back]

2 minutes ago, True Grich said:

So... even Fernando Salas has a chance at being good some day?

Yeah, I think his good days happened in 2011.

[Angel Oracle]

43 minutes ago, Inside Pitch said:

Maybe it was cockiness -- and I agree he should have seen it coming.  But I don't think he expected it to come all at once like it seemingly did this past off-season.  My honest opinion is that he didn't expect the free agent freeze out to be as bad as it was and he fully expected there to be a greater choice of guys to pick up -- then there wasn't.   It seemed like when everyone stopped chasing FA, they went right after BP arms.  Some teams no doubt were going according to plan, I think others jumped on the bandwagon as it developed..

Epp missed the boat.  I doubt it happens again.

I'm hoping it doesn't.  

[Blarg]

I said this about three years ago, Relief pitchers are flakes and Inside Pitch laughed but also agreed. You go through the history of relief pitchers and there are not many that have an actual real career doing this year after year. What we are putting out there are the guys that never have really had that long stretch of being good at this. They are being forced to cover a blown up starting pitching staff that goes 7 innings one game then follows that up with two games that the starter barely gets out of the 4th.

16 arms have been sent to the mound to relieve this season so far. You really don't think that was going to work out well, did you guys?