Demoting Calhoun

[Hubs]

In 09, this happened to Kendrick (though he had one option remaining), he was sent down after hitting .231 with a .281 OBP and a .656 OPS. He was clearly pressing and not performing well. He was sent down after the June 11th game.

When he returned on July 2nd he hit .387 with a .981 OPS in July, then .328 with an .835 OPS in August, then .339 with a .947 OPS in September.

I feel like this happened to FIggins too, at some point. He I think was sent down and then came back on figurative fire.

[floplag]

46 minutes ago, Angelsjunky said:

Actually, it kind of is. It isn't like Kole is just slumping. He is hitting .154, with a .396 OPS - and it almost June. If he was hitting .200 with a .600 OPS, it might make sense to let him work things out, but he is so bad that he's really hurting the team.

And they haven't really tried Michael Hermosillo yet. Again, a player doesn't have to be very good, even good at all, to be better than Kole.

I think your focusing only on the bat, which  i agree has been awful, if thats all were considering then yes its very simple, but thats not i am looking at.  Take that play last night, any of the other guys make that?  and that wasnt the first time.  He is after all a gold glove RF.   If he doesnt make that play that game is gone like so many others.

If Hermosillo works out, i would be very fine with him being there for a couple weeks to give Kole a chance to pull his head out.  I think Kole has to have a chance to win that back when the time is right.

We have him for 2 more years i think, we need to fix the investment, not jettison it.  

[zenmaster]

17 minutes ago, Hubs said:

he was sent down after hitting .231 with a .281 OBP and a .656 OPS.

Calhoun would KILL for these numbers that got Howie sent down.

[Blarg]

15 minutes ago, floplag said:

I think your focusing only on the bat, which  i agree has been awful, if thats all were considering then yes its very simple, but thats not i am looking at.  Take that play last night, any of the other guys make that?  and that wasnt the first time.  He is after all a gold glove RF.   If he doesnt make that play that game is gone like so many others.

If Hermosillo works out, i would be very fine with him being there for a couple weeks to give Kole a chance to pull his head out.  I think Kole has to have a chance to win that back when the time is right.

We have him for 2 more years i think, we need to fix the investment, not jettison it.  

Which one? The one he dove for instead of playing the hop only to have it skid by him for a double? That runner scored. 

His only time on base was due to a fielding error that erased the lead runner. He followed that up with a baserunning error that erased a run from scoring. That was a run and a potential run scored erased in one inning by Calhoun.

He cost the Angels three runs yesterday. Throwing out Granderson was only necessitated by his error earlier in the 9th.

He is a Trainwreck. 

[Lou]

His career is not over if he doesn't turn it around this year. 

Not even close. 

[GrittyVeterans]

1 minute ago, Lou said:

His career is not over if he doesn't turn it around this year. 

Not even close. 

Yeah, he's going to get at least another season or two to turn it around, won't be with the Angels but someone will take a flier

This guy won a gold glove not long ago and was an above average player 4 straight seasons. He has enough track record and is young enough to warrant staying in the big leagues for a while longer.

It might be time for the Angels to just move on

[DMVol]

28 minutes ago, Lou said:

His career is not over if he doesn't turn it around this year. 

Not even close. 

Espinosa keeps getting chances...

[Troll Daddy]

51 minutes ago, Blarg said:

Which one? The one he dove for instead of playing the hop only to have it skid by him for a double? That runner scored. 

His only time on base was due to a fielding error that erased the lead runner. He followed that up with a baserunning error that erased a run from scoring. That was a run and a potential run scored erased in one inning by Calhoun.

He cost the Angels three runs yesterday. Throwing out Granderson was only necessitated by his error earlier in the 9th.

He is a Trainwreck. 

Wow, what game did you watch? No way could that hit be palyed on a hop ... double all the way. The fielding error could of easily been called a hit ... tough play for Granderson. Calhoun also came very close to a grand slam in the game. The so called base running error was just good hard baseball and protecting the run across the plate except Maldy was lolly gagging it to home. Calhoun's seventh outfield assist helped save the win.

Sounds more like a trainwreck of a post.  

 

[Blarg]

He played that hit poorly, trying for the sports center highlight rather than just cut it off. He plays all or nothing. Lately more nothing.

[stormngt]

41 minutes ago, Troll Daddy said:

Wow, what game did you watch? No way could that hit be palyed on a hop ... double all the way. The fielding error could of easily been called a hit ... tough play for Granderson. Calhoun also came very close to a grand slam in the game. The so called base running error was just good hard baseball and protecting the run across the plate except Maldy was lolly gagging it to home. Calhoun's seventh outfield assist helped save the win.

Sounds more like a trainwreck of a post.  

 

Dont get carried away.  The one he dove for would have been a single had he not tried for the dive.   He should have had a hit  but they did get the lead runner.  It was a bonehead play going for third.  There is justification for that.  His throw home was a great play.

[beatlesrule]

If Kole was truly that amazing in the field, his WAR would reflect that.  He's putting up Jeff Mathis numbers in RF.  Mathis was hailed as an amazing pitch caller/framer so you could understand his playing time.  RF are supposed to be able to hit.  Kole has made some great plays in the OF sure but overall, he's a terrible player.

[Chris]

Cold Calhoun is making us pine for the days of Matt Joyce, Jeff Mathis, and Brandon Wood.  That's not good.

[floplag]

57 minutes ago, beatlesrule said:

If Kole was truly that amazing in the field, his WAR would reflect that.  He's putting up Jeff Mathis numbers in RF.  Mathis was hailed as an amazing pitch caller/framer so you could understand his playing time.  RF are supposed to be able to hit.  Kole has made some great plays in the OF sure but overall, he's a terrible player.

WAR does not value defense properly, not even close.  
But then again neither do most fans so... meh 

[Inside Pitch]

6 minutes ago, floplag said:

WAR does not value defense properly, not even close.  
But then again neither do most fans so... meh 

You're right -- it's famous for OVER-valuing defense.   

I'm a huge run prevention>run production guy, but that glove isn't making up for what the bat is leaving on the table.   He's got a .376 OPS as a corner OFer.   Brandon Wood's career OPS as an Angel was 513

Hopefully he turns it around, the team is obviously being very patient with him.

[floplag]

23 minutes ago, Inside Pitch said:

You're right -- it's famous for OVER-valuing defense.   

I'm a huge run prevention>run production guy, but that glove isn't making up for what the bat is leaving on the table.   He's got a .376 OPS as a corner OFer.   Brandon Wood's career OPS as an Angel was 513

Hopefully he turns it around, the team is obviously being very patient with him.

Reeeeeally
Explain this to me then...
2 days i posted in another thread that the following 2 players had the exact same WAR:  0.02 at that time.
Player #1:  153 / 288 / 324 / 612    5 HR, 12 RBI, 19 BB, 33 K
Player #2:  248 / 317 / 363 / 680   2 HR,  12 RBI, 7 BB, 26 K
Player #2 is 10 times the defender player 1 is.  
Player #1 is Russel Martin, Player #2 is Martin Maldonado. 
If you can use those examples to explain to me how defense is valued under WAR, ill eat my damn hat.
If you can use WAR to explain to me how those players are even remotely comparable, i might still eat it.  
Maldonado surpasses him in every offensive category but HR and BB, and is by far the superior defender. 
SAME FREAKING WAR. 

Disclosure, Martin has since dropped to 0.1, buit the point remains.  How are they even close, if WAR values defense?

[stormngt]

1 hour ago, floplag said:

Reeeeeally
Explain this to me then...
2 days i posted in another thread that the following 2 players had the exact same WAR:  0.02 at that time.
Player #1:  153 / 288 / 324 / 612    5 HR, 12 RBI, 19 BB, 33 K
Player #2:  248 / 317 / 363 / 680   2 HR,  12 RBI, 7 BB, 26 K
Player #2 is 10 times the defender player 1 is.  
Player #1 is Russel Martin, Player #2 is Martin Maldonado. 
If you can use those examples to explain to me how defense is valued under WAR, ill eat my damn hat.
If you can use WAR to explain to me how those players are even remotely comparable, i might still eat it.  
Maldonado surpasses him in every offensive category but HR and BB, and is by far the superior defender. 
SAME FREAKING WAR. 

Disclosure, Martin has since dropped to 0.1, buit the point remains.  How are they even close, if WAR values defense?

Exactly.   The more I hear about the stat the more its losses credibility with me .

[Inside Pitch]

1 hour ago, floplag said:

Reeeeeally
Explain this to me then...
2 days i posted in another thread that the following 2 players had the exact same WAR:  0.02 at that time.
Player #1:  153 / 288 / 324 / 612    5 HR, 12 RBI, 19 BB, 33 K
Player #2:  248 / 317 / 363 / 680   2 HR,  12 RBI, 7 BB, 26 K
Player #2 is 10 times the defender player 1 is.  
Player #1 is Russel Martin, Player #2 is Martin Maldonado. 
If you can use those examples to explain to me how defense is valued under WAR, ill eat my damn hat.
If you can use WAR to explain to me how those players are even remotely comparable, i might still eat it.  
Maldonado surpasses him in every offensive category but HR and BB, and is by far the superior defender. 
SAME FREAKING WAR. 

Disclosure, Martin has since dropped to 0.1, buit the point remains.  How are they even close, if WAR values defense?

Not sure what it is you're asking me to do...  If you want an explanation of how they determine WAR -- go to their website and look it up.   If you're saying that I'm arguing WAR undervalues defense -- I said the exact opposite.  Not that it seems you understood how I meant that anyway.

Anyway.... assuming you used BRef as your WAR source -- they are rating Maldonado as a negative 0.1 defensive player this year.  Conversely, they are rating Martin as a POSITIVE  0.2 defense player this year.   So, in the opinion of bRef -- Russell Martin has been the superior defensive player.   So, despite Maldonado putting up an oWAR of 0.6 -- which is 0.4 better than Martin his overall WAR is only 0.2 to Russell Martin's 0.1.   How much of the difference is being made up by the baserunning components of bWAR -- I can't really tell you.  But, it would appear that those players are "remotely comparable" partially because they view Martin as the much better defender.  

Now if you use the FG version of WAR -- you have Martin at -0.1 fWAR, and Maldonado at 0.4 fWAR.

As far as arguing that Martin is 10 times the defender that Maldonado is...   FG has Martin at 3 DRS to Maldonado's (-3). So DRS views Maldonado as a bad defensive catcher so far this year.  Statcorner.com also has Maldonado as a negative pitch framer so far in 2018, whereas Martin has a positive score.  So, at least three different sources are viewing Russell Martin as the superior defender.  I haven't seen enough of him this year to have an opinion.  You'd have to take that fight up with them.    

So -- not sure if any of this satisfies whatever it is you're asking but it's kinda pointless given my initial comment.  The issues with WAR and why it's got a rep for overvaluing defense has everything to do with total chances and what actually happens so sample sizes make for volatile data.  A guy with a small sample who robs three HRs  over the span of ten games will have a HUGE dWAR figure because the system tends to put a lot of weight into things like that.   Basically, dWar is best looked at over the course of a full season (we are currently at 40+ games), and in reality over multiple seasons.  Even then it's a very flawed metric depending on which source of WAR you are using.  

I hope you enjoy your hat?

Edited May 25, 2018 by Inside Pitch

[101halo]

59 minutes ago, Inside Pitch said:

Not sure what it is you're asking me to do...  If you want an explanation of how they determine WAR -- go to their website and look it up.   If you're saying that I'm arguing WAR undervalues defense -- I said the exact opposite.  Not that it seems you understood how I meant that anyway.

Anyway.... assuming you used BRef as your WAR source -- they are rating Maldonado as a negative 0.1 defensive player this year.  Conversely, they are rating Martin as a POSITIVE  0.2 defense player this year.   So, in the opinion of bRef -- Russell Martin has been the superior defensive player.   So, despite Maldonado putting up an oWAR of 0.6 -- which is 0.4 better than Martin his overall WAR is only 0.2 to Russell Martin's 0.1.   How much of the difference is being made up by the baserunning components of bWAR -- I can't really tell you.  But, it would appear that those players are "remotely comparable" partially because they view Martin as the much better defender.  

Now if you use the FG version of WAR -- you have Martin at -0.1 fWAR, and Maldonado at 0.4 fWAR.

As far as arguing that Martin is 10 times the defender that Maldonado is...   FG has Martin at 3 DRS to Maldonado's (-3). So DRS views Maldonado as a bad defensive catcher so far this year.  Statcorner.com also has Maldonado as a negative pitch framer so far in 2018, whereas Martin has a positive score.  So, at least three different sources are viewing Russell Martin as the superior defender.  I haven't seen enough of him this year to have an opinion.  You'd have to take that fight up with them.    

So -- not sure if any of this satisfies whatever it is you're asking but it's kinda pointless given my initial comment.  The issues with WAR and why it's got a rep for overvaluing defense has everything to do with total chances and what actually happens so sample sizes make for volatile data.  A guy with a small sample who robs three HRs  over the span of ten games will have a HUGE dWAR figure because the system tends to put a lot of weight into things like that.   Basically, dWar is best looked at over the course of a full season (we are currently at 40+ games), and in reality over multiple seasons.  Even then it's a very flawed metric depending on which source of WAR you are using.  

I hope you enjoy your hat?

My understanding is that FG uses catcher framing stats where BR doesn't or uses different ones. Likely that explains the difference in defense between the two. 

[Inside Pitch]

Just now, 101halo said:

My understanding is that FG uses catcher framing stats where BR doesn't or uses different ones. Likely that explains the difference in defense between the two. 

This is pretty good at summarizing the difference... https://www.baseball-reference.com/about/war_explained_comparison.shtml    but the pitch framing data favors Martin.

[101halo]

5 minutes ago, Inside Pitch said:

This is pretty good at summarizing the difference... https://www.baseball-reference.com/about/war_explained_comparison.shtml    but the pitch framing data favors Martin.

Thanks, was too lazy to go find it myself since I just got home from work ha. 

Do any of the framing stats sites break it further than to catcher? Meaning, any that have it catcher with individual pitchers listed? I ask because I'm pretty sure from memory that Maldy has caught Ohtani most starts, wonder if his crazy movement on splitty and slidy (as Sosh would call them) might be taking some time to adjust to for him. 

[Lou]

How do they take into consideration if Catcher A, who plays when a pitcher throws all his pitches in the strike zone versus Catcher B, who plays when a pitcher throws nothing but balls?  (theoretically speaking, of course)

[Inside Pitch]

19 minutes ago, 101halo said:

Thanks, was too lazy to go find it myself since I just got home from work ha. 

Do any of the framing stats sites break it further than to catcher? Meaning, any that have it catcher with individual pitchers listed? I ask because I'm pretty sure from memory that Maldy has caught Ohtani most starts, wonder if his crazy movement on splitty and slidy (as Sosh would call them) might be taking some time to adjust to for him. 

STATS Inc does, but its a monthly subscription.   I'm not aware of anyone else...

18 minutes ago, Lou said:

How do they take into consideration if Catcher A, who plays when a pitcher throws all his pitches in the strike zone versus Catcher B, who plays when a pitcher throws nothing but balls?  (theoretically speaking, of course)

Good question..   For the most part I think it doesn't matter, it only counts pitches that could be stolen using PITCHf/x

[floplag]

2 hours ago, Inside Pitch said:

Not sure what it is you're asking me to do...  If you want an explanation of how they determine WAR -- go to their website and look it up.   If you're saying that I'm arguing WAR undervalues defense -- I said the exact opposite.  Not that it seems you understood how I meant that anyway.

Anyway.... assuming you used BRef as your WAR source -- they are rating Maldonado as a negative 0.1 defensive player this year.  Conversely, they are rating Martin as a POSITIVE  0.2 defense player this year.   So, in the opinion of bRef -- Russell Martin has been the superior defensive player.   So, despite Maldonado putting up an oWAR of 0.6 -- which is 0.4 better than Martin his overall WAR is only 0.2 to Russell Martin's 0.1.   How much of the difference is being made up by the baserunning components of bWAR -- I can't really tell you.  But, it would appear that those players are "remotely comparable" partially because they view Martin as the much better defender.  

Now if you use the FG version of WAR -- you have Martin at -0.1 fWAR, and Maldonado at 0.4 fWAR.

As far as arguing that Martin is 10 times the defender that Maldonado is...   FG has Martin at 3 DRS to Maldonado's (-3). So DRS views Maldonado as a bad defensive catcher so far this year.  Statcorner.com also has Maldonado as a negative pitch framer so far in 2018, whereas Martin has a positive score.  So, at least three different sources are viewing Russell Martin as the superior defender.  I haven't seen enough of him this year to have an opinion.  You'd have to take that fight up with them.    

So -- not sure if any of this satisfies whatever it is you're asking but it's kinda pointless given my initial comment.  The issues with WAR and why it's got a rep for overvaluing defense has everything to do with total chances and what actually happens so sample sizes make for volatile data.  A guy with a small sample who robs three HRs  over the span of ten games will have a HUGE dWAR figure because the system tends to put a lot of weight into things like that.   Basically, dWar is best looked at over the course of a full season (we are currently at 40+ games), and in reality over multiple seasons.  Even then it's a very flawed metric depending on which source of WAR you are using.  

I hope you enjoy your hat?

Lost me at any suggestion that is a  martin a better defender in any capacity.  Good luck selling that

[101halo]

5 minutes ago, floplag said:

Lost me at any suggestion that is a  martin a better defender in any capacity.  Good luck selling that

I think you can view catcher the defense the same way you can view offense. Has Mookie Betts been a better hitter than Trout through a little over a quarter of a season? Yes, he has (argh that hurts to type). Do you think he'll finish the year as a better hitter than Trout? Me neither. Reminds me of Emilio Bonifacio of the Marlins a few years back. He had a RIDICULOUS April. People went apeshit. Dude went back to a nobody in a blink of an eye. Basically anyone in MLB can get hot for a month or two. No reason to think that can't apply to defense too, especially when both BR and FG constantly warn against using small sample size defensive metrics. They're telling you to not do exactly what you're doing with their own data. 

[Inside Pitch]

1 hour ago, floplag said:

Lost me at any suggestion that is a  martin a better defender in any capacity.  Good luck selling that

Oy vey!  

I'm not trying to sell you on anything.   I made the point that WAR has been accused of OVER-valuing defense.  You asked how and threw out an example you believed would prove your point...  I used your example and the numbers you threw at me to show you how.  In your rush to be snarky you failed to realize your example didn't really support your position... rather, it hints that WAR might be overvaluing Martin's defense in relation to his total WAR -- which was MY point .... the one you took issue with..  LOL.

I get that your real goal was to dismiss WAR, but my point was that the defensive component of WAR is flawed..  

Later.

Edited May 25, 2018 by Inside Pitch