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Howie Kendrick


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7 hours ago, Inside Pitch said:

Kendrick ranks 66th all time in WAR at 2b.  So, while he wasn't great, he was for the most part consistently better than the average 2B, easily a second tier guy for the entirety of his Angels' career..   He was definitely underappreciated by Angels fans.... mostly because people bought into minor league batting averages and not any of the predictive data that argued it wasn't going to carry over in MLB.

Perhaps by being consistently average, with occasional good years, he was overall above average. 

4 hours ago, Erstad Grit said:

When HK was here we could count on .280 ish BA, 25-35 doubles, 10 HR, OPS around 750, 10-15 SB, and great defense. 

Compare that to what we've had there since then. 

He was great. Not saying even borderline HOF, but a great baseball player. 

 

"Great" is defined as "considerably above the normal or average." Howie was not considerably above average, and thus not a "great baseball player." Let's call him "good" and we'll split the difference.

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4 hours ago, SuperTroopers said:

Maybe not great as it relates to MLB but a great Angel.  He extended our line up for a decade.  He hit over .290 with a .330 OBP and a .750 OPS as a second baseman.  He is one of the most consistent players we had year in and year out.  He was severely under rated by fans.  If we had him this year and he was healthy, we would be in a much better place.  

I can agree with this. Although this isn't saying much. But the only Angels second baseman who was clearly greater was Bobby Grich. All-time Angels fWAR leaders for Angels second basemen (Angels career only):

1. Bobby Grich 35.6

2. Howie Kendrick 22.9

3. Adam Kennedy 15.6

4. Bobby Knoop 12.3

5. Maicer Izturis 12.1

It drops off after that with Randy Velarde at #6 with 5.8 fWAR. We can hope that one of Fletcher, Rengifo, Jones, or Rivas will change that list.

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30 minutes ago, True Grich said:

I think people appreciate him more now than when he was here. 

You could say that for almost the whole 2000s core.

Obviously the pen. Not just that we had an insane one for a bit, but always added a guy who here and there who worked out (until the 2000 teens).

Aybar was replaced by simmons, obvious upgrade. But think about how solid and affordable aybar was (and home grown). Howie was better than AK, far better than anything since.

People turned on Vlad at the end. Plug his last years numbers here (when people turned on him) into RF now, and over the last few years...

GA in LF....dogshit since.

Figgins at 3B...but he "didnt hit enough home runs". Rivera...Napoli...

As far as pitching, Lackey is the obvious. But then think about guys like Byrd, and Saunders. Garland. Non showy moves that worked out. And we consistently produced guys like Santana and Weaver (on the plus side) who could replace the old guys leaving.

Its crazy how much things changed. From the early 90s until about 2010, we consistently produced capable players. Maybe not all stars, but stable every day guys. Torii is the last big name free agent i can think of who worked out, and funny enough, some on here used to complain about him. How he wasnt "a leader".

As bad as reagins was, his short term guys like abreau and matsui were at least decent. They just werent what wed grown used to, guys who could get us to the playoffs every year.

 

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5 hours ago, SuperTroopers said:

Maybe not great as it relates to MLB but a great Angel.  He extended our line up for a decade.  He hit over .290 with a .330 OBP and a .750 OPS as a second baseman.  He is one of the most consistent players we had year in and year out.  He was severely under rated by fans.  If we had him this year and he was healthy, we would be in a much better place.  

It's too bad he had to play under Scioscia. Otherwise his line would have been .330/.380/.820.

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2 hours ago, Angelsjunky said:

"Great" is defined as "considerably above the normal or average." Howie was not considerably above average, and thus not a "great baseball player." Let's call him "good" and we'll split the difference.

Forgive me for being pedantic but...

"Average" is defined as the typical value of a group under consideration.

Year/ AL average 2B/Howie/ WAA (wins above average)

2006 AL - .726, HK - 730 - 0.5  (72 games)
2007 AL - .754, HK - .796 - 1.5 (88 games)
2008 AL - .746, HK - .754 - 0.6 (92 games)
2009 AL - .750, HK - .778 - 1.7 (102 games)
2010 AL - .717, HK - .721 - 0.0
2011 AL - .718, HK - .802 - 2.5
2012 AL - .682, HK - .725 - 0.7
2013 AL - .707, HK - .775 - 1.6 
2014 AL - .692, HK - .744 - 3.1

Compared to his actual peers at 2B, HK was consistently better than what was to be considered average for a 2B (all but once).  On at least 4 occasions, his production was measurably better than his peers at 2B.

1 hour ago, Angelsjunky said:

I can agree with this. Although this isn't saying much. But the only Angels second baseman who was clearly greater was Bobby Grich. All-time Angels fWAR leaders for Angels second basemen (Angels career only):

Yeah the only guy better than him also ranks 8th all time for WAR among 2B.

When it's all said and done -- Howie's been one of the top 100 2B in MLB history...   People can discount him all they want, but it won't change that reality.  2B has historically been one of the weaker performing positions in MLB..    So much so that Bobby Knoop managed MVP votes in two seasons where he combined for an OPS+ of 96 and a .681 OPS.

Edited by Inside Pitch
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31 minutes ago, azmancini said:

LMAO!  Can’t make this shit up!  You call me the idiot, but you can’t spell IDIOT!  You guys start with the personal attacks and can’t take the heat back. You need a safespace now Failos? Maybe some Legos to help you deal with my horrible, nasty post?  Geez, some of you Cali folks!

You skus at trolling

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31 minutes ago, azmancini said:

LMAO!  Can’t make this shit up!  You call me the idiot, but you can’t spell IDIOT!  You guys start with the personal attacks and can’t take the heat back. You need a safespace now Failos? Maybe some Legos to help you deal with my horrible, nasty post?  Geez, some of you Cali folks!

Image result for land war in asia

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Those numbers are pretty close to average, @Inside Pitch. I'll grant you that Howie was usually an above average hitter for a second baseman, but not significantly so. And as I said, being consistently average to above average is pretty good. So I'm not knocking him for being what he was.

As far as his all-time ranking as a second baseman, it is interesting to look at who some of the players are who are ranking similarly and with similar PA. Brian Roberts, Ray Durham, Luis Castillo, Robby Thompson, Mark Ellis, etc....pretty much the Hall of the Above Average.

Jose Altuve is close, but he's played over 400 fewer games and will jump over all of these guys.

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2 minutes ago, Angelsjunky said:

Those numbers are pretty close to average, @Inside Pitch. I'll grant you that Howie was usually an above average hitter for a second baseman, but not significantly so. And as I said, being consistently average to above average is pretty good. So I'm not knocking him for being what he was.

As far as his all-time ranking as a second baseman, it is interesting to look at who some of the players are who are ranking similarly and with similar PA. Brian Roberts, Ray Durham, Luis Castillo, Robby Thompson, Mark Ellis, etc....pretty much the Hall of the Above Average.

Jose Altuve is close, but he's played over 400 fewer games and will jump over all of these guys.

2B has just been an incredibly weak position in the AL for most of it's history.   

It's really kinda nutty how many guys we would classify as "meh" rank highly ..  For instance.  Adam Kennedy is among the top 100 in WAR at 2B.  I'm not saying AK sucked -- but would anyone have believed he would be among the top 100 2b all time? (using WAR).

Its against that back drop that I believe Howie is better than people realize.

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1 minute ago, Inside Pitch said:

2B has just been an incredibly weak position in the AL for most of it's history.   

It's really kinda nutty how many guys we would classify as "meh" rank highly ..  For instance.  Adam Kennedy is among the top 100 in WAR at 2B.  I'm not saying AK sucked -- but would anyone have believed he would be among the top 100 2b all time? (using WAR).

Its against that back drop that I believe Howie is better than people realize.

OK, fair enough - and a good point. I think 3B is similar in having fewer truly great players than other positions, and of course catcher.The best athletes and overall players gravitate to SS and CF, with the lesser defenders moving to the corner outfield positions, the great hitters but lesser athletes playing first. 2B sometimes gets the leftovers from the shortstop talent.

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