This Bullpen is on Eppler

[Docwaukee]

so the save is a questionable stat.  I get why people consider that.  But you have to close out the game.  The halos have 8 blown saves in 17 chances.  For those keeping track, that's not good.  

the pen has pitched a lot.   Shouldn't that have been expected?  

I didn't want to be right about this.  I hope that two months from now we see this thread bumped and I get an 'I agree'.  

My biggest concern is that there's no light at the end of this tunnel.  There just isn't any talent available.  

Tonight, MS went for a 6 out save from a rookie.  What does that tell you?   

Will is help to get Keynan back?  you bet.  

Does that get us to mediocre?  I doubt it.  

You can't go to war like this.  

[GrittyVeterans]

I respect Eppler for sticking to his philosophy of not overpaying for bullpen help no matter what, but I have to say, it's the one thing he does that I entirely disagree with

He had options to improve the pen this winter and money to spend and chose to go with what we have. Hasn't worked. Now you pay prospects if you want to get better.

[rafibomb]

I think the pen has plenty of talent with guys like Anderson, Johnson, Alvarez and Middleton. But, the problem is those guys are above average 7th or 8th inning guys in my opinion. We don't have that without a doubt guy in the pen that will come in every 9th inning and shut the door. I do believe with time guys like Anderson and Middleton can become that 9th inning guy, but that comes with experience by being shutdown setup guys. Like Frankie with Percival.

[TroutField]

What are you guys willing to part with prospect wise for bullpen help? If it’s Hermosillo and Jahmai Jones for a rental closer like Herrera is it worth it?

Unless Eppler can get some talent back without shedding top 10 prospects, I’m not so sure how we can get better right now. 

 

[Second Base]

It sucks to lose a game you should have won.

But that bullpen management or mismanagement falls on Scioscia. He falls in love with one option and sticks with it. Justin Anderson is not a 6 out closer.

And as for the bullpen depth, the Angels haven't exhausted every option yet.

Blake Parker is pitching well again. Noe Ramirez has been a rock. Jose Alvarez has shouldered a tremendous burden. But this team really hasn't given Paredes or Morris a chance at pitching consistently in one role in Anaheim. They've also kept John Lamb and Felix Pena starting in AAA.

Again, it sucks to lose those games. But let's not lose our confidence in Eppler's ability to unearth pitchers from nothingness, or the likelihood of this team trading for a reliever and starter at the deadline.

[Stradling]

14 minutes ago, Scotty@AW said:

It sucks to lose a game you should have won.

But that bullpen management or mismanagement falls on Scioscia. He falls in love with one option and sticks with it. Justin Anderson is not a 6 out closer.

And as for the bullpen depth, the Angels haven't exhausted every option yet.

Blake Parker is pitching well again. Noe Ramirez has been a rock. Jose Alvarez has shouldered a tremendous burden. But this team really hasn't given Paredes or Morris a chance at pitching consistently in one role in Anaheim. They've also kept John Lamb and Felix Pena starting in AAA.

Again, it sucks to lose those games. But let's not lose our confidence in Eppler's ability to unearth pitchers from nothingness, or the likelihood of this team trading for a reliever and starter at the deadline.

Sorry dude but Morris and Parades do not deserve to be pitching in games that matter, they look awful.   The lack of actual depth is Epplers fault.   Intentionally walking Kepler is Scioscia’s fault.  

[Vlad27Trout27]

Last nights lose was on MS, After Anderson gave up that Hr he was wavering and should have been taken out, as a matter of fact Thursdays blown save his on MS, as great of a season as Alvarez has had, we know that can't be used as a lefty specialist, how many time have we seen him choke!! he is guy that needs to start of a fresh inning. 

Middleton is our closer for the time being, he's only blown 1 save and that was the day before he went on the disable list.

i'd keep Anderson has the 8th

than a combo of Bedrosian/ Johnson/ Parker/ Alvarez for the 7Th

     

[Stradling]

2 minutes ago, Vlad27Trout27 said:

Last nights lose was on MS, After Anderson gave up that Hr he was wavering and should have been taken out, as a matter of fact Thursdays blown save his on MS, as great of a season as Alvarez has had, we know that can't be used as a lefty specialist, how many time have we seen him choke!! he is guy that needs to start of a fresh inning. 

Middleton is our closer for the time being, he's only blown 1 save and that was the day before he went on the disable list.

i'd keep Anderson has the 8th

than a combo of Bedrosian/ Johnson/ Parker/ Alvarez for the 7Th

     

I agree that last night was on Scioscia, but for different reasons.  Are we simply ignoring that after he gave up the home run he struck out the next batter?  I guess we could have taken him out after the strike out because at that point he had thrown a few pitches in the 9th.  I think it is pretty obvious that Scioscia was hoping he would have a quick 9th, and after a full count homer, and a strike out, his pitch count in the 9th was building up.  I don't think he trusts Johnson, whether he should or not is up for debate.

As for blaming Scioscia for Alvarez, when you have one guy that has been really good and a bunch that haven't, well you have to rely on the guy that has been really good.  

[floplag]

8 of 17, thats very telling to me, even if many of them were in the same games.  

Do i blame MS last night... IDK, did he really have an option to go to that was any better?  None of these guys has been that consistent. Flashes of great, flashes of not.

Whatever Epp strategy is regarding bullpens, it cant be an absolute, not when you have the SP staff we do.  Anyone with a brain knew we were going to be counting on the pen, or
should have anyway.   It should have been obvious that we needed someone proven out there to glue it all together.  I would have been perfectly happy with those guys if they had a rock behind them, as is they are all trying to be the closer of the moment.  

It will be the difference this year, i have no doubt of that, and right now its cost us 3 games in less than 25% of the season.

[Troll Daddy]

A over reaction to the pen imo ... that’s what we do here. Picking up another solid reliever is a good thing. Some of these young relievers are learning in the heat of battle. I personally haven’t lost faith yet. 

 

[Stradling]

1 minute ago, floplag said:

8 of 17, thats very telling to me, even if many of them were in the same games.  

Do i blame MS last night... IDK, did he really have an option to go to that was any better?  None of these guys has been that consistent. Flashes of great, flashes of not.

Whatever Epp strategy is regarding bullpens, it cant be an absolute, not when you have the SP staff we do.  Anyone with a brain knew we were going to be counting on the pen, or
should have anyway.   It should have been obvious that we needed someone proven out there to glue it all together.  I would have been perfectly happy with those guys if they had a rock behind them, as is they are all trying to be the closer of the moment.  

It will be the difference this year, i have no doubt of that, and right now its cost us 3 games in less than 25% of the season.

Again, I love part of this.  You are right, he can't have an absolute strategy with the pen.  You are on a roll today flop as that is a perfect way to describe it.   As for it costing 3 games in 25% of the season, good pens have also lost 3 games this year that they should have won.  So while it is bad, it isn't a 3 game swing.  

It has been brought up here but bears repeating, Eppler came from NY and that is a team that always spent money on the bullpen.  My guess is when he sees fit he will spend to fix the bullpen.  I would also assume that he will see fit to do so at the deadline this year if not sooner.  

[stormngt]

1 hour ago, Scotty@AW said:

It sucks to lose a game you should have won.

But that bullpen management or mismanagement falls on Scioscia. He falls in love with one option and sticks with it. Justin Anderson is not a 6 out closer.

And as for the bullpen depth, the Angels haven't exhausted every option yet.

Blake Parker is pitching well again. Noe Ramirez has been a rock. Jose Alvarez has shouldered a tremendous burden. But this team really hasn't given Paredes or Morris a chance at pitching consistently in one role in Anaheim. They've also kept John Lamb and Felix Pena starting in AAA.

Again, it sucks to lose those games. But let's not lose our confidence in Eppler's ability to unearth pitchers from nothingness, or the likelihood of this team trading for a reliever and starter at the deadline.

I respect your opinion a lot.  However you lost me when you suggest Paredes or Morris.

If my choices are Anderson for 6 out or Paredes and Morris I go with Anderson.

[nando714]

Eppler failed miserably with regards to the bullpen. Last season was a fluke and they showed it towards the end of 2017. He added a “has been” in JJ and that’s about it

now as we’re rebuilding the farm we’re gonna have to give some pieces to fix this bullpen if the angels want to contend long term in 2018. 

You’d think they would rather overpay in dollars than farm pieces to fix this failing bullpen that can’t close but I guess not 

[Vlad27Trout27]

29 minutes ago, SuperTroopers said:

I agree that last night was on Scioscia, but for different reasons.  Are we simply ignoring that after he gave up the home run he struck out the next batter?  I guess we could have taken him out after the strike out because at that point he had thrown a few pitches in the 9th.  I think it is pretty obvious that Scioscia was hoping he would have a quick 9th, and after a full count homer, and a strike out, his pitch count in the 9th was building up.  I don't think he trusts Johnson, whether he should or not is up for debate.

As for blaming Scioscia for Alvarez, when you have one guy that has been really good and a bunch that haven't, well you have to rely on the guy that has been really good.  

I agreed with you on most of the stuff, but Anderson'e stuff was not as good as it was in the 8th inning! He started missing with the slider and was throwing a lot of pitches :  8 pitches to Rosario, 10 total  to Morrision and Grossman. 

Alvarez has 2 blown-saves, he needs to start of an inning instead of reliving someone else! How many runs have we seen him allow when he's relives someone to face a lefty? quite a bit. I'm just saying that Alvarez has been good this year, but he's been pretty terrible in his career in those scenarios. I believe it was a similar case down in Houston and i think he either allowed the tying run or go-ahead run against McCain.    

[stormngt]

1 hour ago, SuperTroopers said:

I agree that last night was on Scioscia, but for different reasons.  Are we simply ignoring that after he gave up the home run he struck out the next batter?  I guess we could have taken him out after the strike out because at that point he had thrown a few pitches in the 9th.  I think it is pretty obvious that Scioscia was hoping he would have a quick 9th, and after a full count homer, and a strike out, his pitch count in the 9th was building up.  I don't think he trusts Johnson, whether he should or not is up for debate.

As for blaming Scioscia for Alvarez, when you have one guy that has been really good and a bunch that haven't, well you have to rely on the guy that has been really good.  

It's been reported that Alvarez wasnt a  available because of his workload.  If that's not true we should have gone with him.  First two batters in the 9th were lefties.

[stormngt]

14 minutes ago, floplag said:

8 of 17, thats very telling to me, even if many of them were in the same games.  

Do i blame MS last night... IDK, did he really have an option to go to that was any better?  None of these guys has been that consistent. Flashes of great, flashes of not.

Whatever Epp strategy is regarding bullpens, it cant be an absolute, not when you have the SP staff we do.  Anyone with a brain knew we were going to be counting on the pen, or
should have anyway.   It should have been obvious that we needed someone proven out there to glue it all together.  I would have been perfectly happy with those guys if they had a rock behind them, as is they are all trying to be the closer of the moment.  

It will be the difference this year, i have no doubt of that, and right now its cost us 3 games in less than 25% of the season.

A big problem: we have too many relievers out of options, and they are not reliable to perform.

Balance that with we have a six man rotation and most of our pitchers are on a strict pitch count this they dont deep in our games. 

If our starters dont go eep than we need to keep our bullpen fresh but we dont have many choices to option down.   

[floplag]

10 minutes ago, SuperTroopers said:

Again, I love part of this.  You are right, he can't have an absolute strategy with the pen.  You are on a roll today flop as that is a perfect way to describe it.   As for it costing 3 games in 25% of the season, good pens have also lost 3 games this year that they should have won.  So while it is bad, it isn't a 3 game swing.  

It has been brought up here but bears repeating, Eppler came from NY and that is a team that always spent money on the bullpen.  My guess is when he sees fit he will spend to fix the bullpen.  I would also assume that he will see fit to do so at the deadline this year if not sooner.  

True, it isnt necessarily a 3 game swing, but i dont think anyone here would suggest we shouldnt have at least 2 more wins they didnt save.  

[Stradling]

1 minute ago, floplag said:

True, it isnt necessarily a 3 game swing, but i dont think anyone here would suggest we shouldnt have at least 2 more wins they didnt save.  

I can't disagree with that.  

When everyone was in meltdown form last night I was looking at the number of games lost by the Astros bullpen, a pen that I think we all would agree is much better than ours.  I think people would be surprised by the totals, including a game to us.  

[floplag]

2 minutes ago, SuperTroopers said:

I can't disagree with that.  

When everyone was in meltdown form last night I was looking at the number of games lost by the Astros bullpen, a pen that I think we all would agree is much better than ours.  I think people would be surprised by the totals, including a game to us.  

No bullpen is ever going to be perfect, but there is a marked difference between one that is properly constructed, and one that it is not.

[Lou]

Results are the only thing that matters.

The rest is merely wanting it to be done your way. 

[Lou]

26 minutes ago, floplag said:

True, it isnt necessarily a 3 game swing, but i dont think anyone here would suggest we shouldnt have at least 2 more wins they didnt save.  

And we'll win more games that the other teams' bullpen blow against us.

Works both ways.

[Lou]

32 minutes ago, stormngt said:

It's been reported that Alvarez wasnt a b.c available because of his workload.  If that's not true we should have gone with him.  First two batters in the 9th were lefties.

Are you saying posters on a message board didn't have all of the information?

Stunning. 

[floplag]

5 minutes ago, Lou said:

And we'll win more games that the other teams' bullpen blow against us.

Works both ways.

Perhaps, but for that to be true it assumes our pen is better than theirs, can you name one other contender that you believe this to be true of?

[Lou]

10 hours ago, Dochalo said:

The halos have 8 blown saves in 17 chances.  For those keeping track, that's not good.  

It's an MLB problem, not just an Angels problem.

The Yankees have blown 7 of 17 chances.Houston 5 of 13 and Cleveland 5 of 12.

That means those teams are basically 1 blown save better than us. I'd be interested to see the difference in payroll for the bullpens.

Edited May 12, 2018 by Lou

[Lou]

5 minutes ago, floplag said:

Perhaps, but for that to be true it assumes our pen is better than theirs, can you name one other contender that you believe this to be true of?

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