Ohtani Batting Average

[yk9001]

I like the way Scioscia is handling Ohtani.  Love it in fact.

 

Yes, its a bummer we can go days without seeing him play.  But he is riding uncharted territory, and I like Scioscia's methodology.

[T.G.]

 

[Chuck]

OPS > Batting Average.

[Chuck]

17 minutes ago, yk9001 said:

I like the way Scioscia is handling Ohtani.  Love it in fact.

Yes, its a bummer we can go days without seeing him play.  But he is riding uncharted territory, and I like Scioscia's methodology.

[fan_since79]

38 minutes ago, CubsFan said:

Didn't Ohtani say, himself he wanted to bat the day before and after he pitches?

It doesn't matter what he says. He doesn't know anything about himself and his capabilities.

Scioscia's the man with the knowledge. You don't second guess a Hall of Fame manager.

[CubsFan]

Actually, looking at it what has really hurt the Batting Average stat in the NL is the Colorado Rockies. 

Since 1993 when they started play, the Colorado Rockies have one the Batting title 11 times in the last 25 years.  (with 9 different players winning the batting title).  That one team having one the batting title 44% of the time in the last 25 years because of the high altitude advantage and it has devalued batting average in the NL.

[Angel Oracle]

1 hour ago, True Grich said:

I wonder if has sunk in yet... the magnitude of what Ohtani is doing. It's amazing that he can be this consistent, not playing every day.

This will sound nutso cuukoo.    But he has experience with inconsistency, through batting only 1/2 to 2/3 of the time in Japan.   This is a routine he is used to.

[Angel Oracle]

52 minutes ago, JustATroutFan said:

The answer is yes. On top of my head, Wil Myers, now with the Padres, won AL Rookie of the Year with just a little less than 400 (373 to be exact) plate appearances in 2013.  

Hitting and pitching like he has throughout 2018 = should be a sure fire ROTY pick.   He's already won it for April.

[Pablo]

2 hours ago, yk9001 said:

I like the way Scioscia is handling Ohtani.  Love it in fact.

 

Yes, its a bummer we can go days without seeing him play.  But he is riding uncharted territory, and I like Scioscia's methodology.

Exactly. Putting aside what he's done, he's 23 years old coming off a couple seasons where he didn't play much due to injury. If he were a top pitching prospect as a 23 year old at AA coming off a couple years of limited pitching, nobody would question putting an innings cap on him. Likewise if he were a top hitting prospect, nobody would question giving him frequent days off.

Honestly, back in the bad old days (70's?) I used to get excited opening the Sunday paper to see where my Angels ranked in batting, HR's, etc. Alex Johnson winning the first Angels batting championship was huge. I got excited for the all-star game to see one of my Angels on a national stage.  Now? I don't give a crap about any of that. Win a batting title? A HR title? A HR Derby winner? Rookie of the Year? It's just noise. The important thing, the ONLY important thing is winning that championship. Does playing Shohei in the outfield help or hurt those chances? Does making sure he gets enough PA's to qualify for some individual achievement award help or hurt those chances.

Mgr Mike's job is to maximize those chances. And I applaud him for doing that in the face of pressure to mis-handle his players. 

BTW - I think this applies to pulling SP's in the 6th, and yes, even the 5th if necessary to nurse this oft-injured staff through the post-season. 

[Taylor]

This post by @moccasin in another thread should clear some things up. See the bolded portion.

Quote

For those of you who don't know, out of high school Ohtani clearly expressed that he wanted to be a pitcher in the bigs. But the Fighters drafted him anyway, and lured him by presenting him the plan to make history as a two-way player. After a while, they found out that he was actually a better hitter than a pitcher. He began to play in the outfield, and the DH was forfeited on days he pitched. There is a legendary story of him hitting lead-off on a game he was pitching.  The manager put him at the one-spot and told him "Hit a HR so you don't have to be stuck on the bases and tire yourself before throwing your first pitch". So he swung at the first pitch he saw, drove it into the RF stands, and started trotting around the bases.The manager ended up screaming to him to run slowly around the bases, to keep his breath.

Despite his success, the Fighters were criticized very often, and when he got hurt, the commentators piled on him. They finally came up with a solution, to use him as a DH, and on days that he is pitching and the days prior and after he pitches, he rests. He ended up having a legendary year, .322 /.416 / .588 and 22 HRs in 380 ABs, and 10-4 with a 1.86 ERA.

The Angels are following the formula the Fighters came up with, and it's working fine so far.

 

[jsnpritchett]

2 hours ago, CubsFan said:

I believe rookie of the year, you just need to play a certain number of games to qualify as a rookie.

 

Nope, there's just a limit to the number of plate appearances, innings pitched, and/or days on the active roster for you to no longer still be considered a rookie. 

Willie McCovey won the Rookie of the Year in 1959 with only 219 plate appearances.

[Thomas]

2 hours ago, Chuckster70 said:

OPS > Batting Average.

Mathematically speaking that is a certainty. 

[CubsFan]

15 minutes ago, Thomas said:

Mathematically speaking that is a certainty. 

Unless you have a zero batting average and have zero walks

[Thomas]

2 minutes ago, CubsFan said:

Unless you have a zero batting average and have zero walks

Thought about that but the caveat kind of killed the joke.

[Hubs]

I think Ohtani can eventually hit the qualifying 503 PA needed for the batting title (3.1 per team game 3.1 x 162 = 502.2).

However, he'd have to be the DH for 110-120 games, and hit higher in the batting order (like 4th).

To DH that much, he basically will have to DH almost every day he doesn't pitch, which would mean hitting on most days he doesn't pitch. I think if they stick to the once a week pitching things that Tuesday or Friday is the best day for him to pitch, if you intend to give him the day off hitting before he pitches. (Since Monday is the most common day off).

If he pitched every Tuesday for instance, he'd have 11 Mondays already off, and then be off the rest of the Mondays.  But then he'd basically have to hit every other day. If you take 162 and subtract 27 or so starts, then 16 days off for days he doesn't pitch or hit, you're already at 120 games. And while he will eventually hit in NL Parks, realistically that's 2-3 starts per year, max.

 

 

[Thomas]

I think he may reach the number of PAs, though it's a long shot, as I see them skipping a few starts later in the season to keep his innings at a manageable level. Especially if postseason play and additional innings are likely at that point.

[Jeff Fletcher]

Rookie standards are set before the year begins. So everyone who was a rookie on opening day is a rookie all year. Obviously anyone who had never appeared in the majors prior to 2018 is a rookie for all of 2018.

For guys who play a little in one season, you lose your rookie status for the following season if you surpass 130 PAs or 25 innings (not including September). (I’m not 100 percent sure those are the numbers, but it’s around there.)

There are no minimums. 

[stormngt]

4 hours ago, CubsFan said:

I don't think it's that hard.  Boggs, Gwynn for sure.  Mattingly.  Carew.  Ted Williams.

Forgot george Brett

[Warfarin]

31 minutes ago, Hubs said:

I think Ohtani can eventually hit the qualifying 503 PA needed for the batting title (3.1 per team game 3.1 x 162 = 502.2).

However, he'd have to be the DH for 110-120 games, and hit higher in the batting order (like 4th).

To DH that much, he basically will have to DH almost every day he doesn't pitch, which would mean hitting on most days he doesn't pitch. I think if they stick to the once a week pitching things that Tuesday or Friday is the best day for him to pitch, if you intend to give him the day off hitting before he pitches. (Since Monday is the most common day off).

If he pitched every Tuesday for instance, he'd have 11 Mondays already off, and then be off the rest of the Mondays.  But then he'd basically have to hit every other day. If you take 162 and subtract 27 or so starts, then 16 days off for days he doesn't pitch or hit, you're already at 120 games. And while he will eventually hit in NL Parks, realistically that's 2-3 starts per year, max.

 

 

This also assumes he never gets hurt and never needs days off.  We just saw him suffer an ankle tweak which required him to miss some time.  It's likely he won't "qualify" for meaningless things like batting titles as a result of this, as the likelihood that he gets through a season without ever msising time is near zero.  Again, this is irrelevant and doesn't matter anyway, as our ultimate goal is to win games and have him be primed to go on a World Series run, NOT win meaningless individual awards/achievements.

[krAbs]

1 hour ago, Pablo said:

Exactly. Putting aside what he's done, he's 23 years old coming off a couple seasons where he didn't play much due to injury. If he were a top pitching prospect as a 23 year old at AA coming off a couple years of limited pitching, nobody would question putting an innings cap on him. Likewise if he were a top hitting prospect, nobody would question giving him frequent days off.

Honestly, back in the bad old days (70's?) I used to get excited opening the Sunday paper to see where my Angels ranked in batting, HR's, etc. Alex Johnson winning the first Angels batting championship was huge. I got excited for the all-star game to see one of my Angels on a national stage.  Now? I don't give a crap about any of that. Win a batting title? A HR title? A HR Derby winner? Rookie of the Year? It's just noise. The important thing, the ONLY important thing is winning that championship. Does playing Shohei in the outfield help or hurt those chances? Does making sure he gets enough PA's to qualify for some individual achievement award help or hurt those chances.

Mgr Mike's job is to maximize those chances. And I applaud him for doing that in the face of pressure to mis-handle his players. 

BTW - I think this applies to pulling SP's in the 6th, and yes, even the 5th if necessary to nurse this oft-injured staff through the post-season. 

Right. Really, hitting him every game that he doesn't pitch may fewer to less plate appearances, not more. We are in totally uncharted waters here - no player has ever done what he is doing (Ruth did, but that is a couple dead ball eras and juiced ball swings ago - its a totally different game).

We know how to take care of pitchers and what their work load should be to maximize their value and minimize risk of injury (kinda), because we have a MASSIVE sample size of cases to draw from. Same with hitters. For people who do both, we have exactly one - and most of his time doesn't really count because it was in Japan. So, we talked to his old coaches, his old managers, his old teammates, his old fellow hitters, his old fellow pitchers, his old doctors, our new doctors, our current hitters, our current pitcher, our current coaches, and the Angels have put together a best approximate of a safe way of using him. As it is, there is a good chance he is being over-used - he has a long history of injury in Japan, and has already had two injuries here. Think of it like this: he is our entire sample size. If 100% of pitchers in the major leagues missed as much time as he has, we would conclude that teams need to take better care of their pitchers. So, in this case, its entirely possible that he should actually be batting less, not more. But, we play him more because we want him to push himself, and we think he can handle it moving forward. It is unfathomably stupid to push him past what he has ever done before, deviating from the plan put together by everyone, because we want to see if he can hit an arbitrary mark of at bats without snapping in half like a twig. Its no different than if the Dodgers last year decided to pitch Kershaw every other day, because more Kershaw = better Dodgers. Its incredibly short sighted. During the playoffs, you push your players and see if they can play more - it makes sense when you're in the sprint. Its insane when you're in the marathon.

Its important to remember here - when Ohtani isn't playing, he isn't just messing around chilling out at home. He is doing batting practice every day. He is pitching bullpen sessions most days. Every single day his body is getting more work than anyone else on the team. Every day. We have NEVER seen someone do this in the baseball environment he is in. We haven't seen a 23 year old try to do this since Babe Ruth - and there is a reason he stopped doing it, even though his league was much less work intensive.

[Jeff Fletcher]

2 minutes ago, krAbs said:

Right. Really, hitting him every game that he doesn't pitch may fewer to less plate appearances, not more. We are in totally uncharted waters here - no player has ever done what he is doing (Ruth did, but that is a couple dead ball eras and juiced ball swings ago - its a totally different game).

We know how to take care of pitchers and what their work load should be to maximize their value and minimize risk of injury (kinda), because we have a MASSIVE sample size of cases to draw from. Same with hitters. For people who do both, we have exactly one - and most of his time doesn't really count because it was in Japan. So, we talked to his old coaches, his old managers, his old teammates, his old fellow hitters, his old fellow pitchers, his old doctors, our new doctors, our current hitters, our current pitcher, our current coaches, and the Angels have put together a best approximate of a safe way of using him. As it is, there is a good chance he is being over-used - he has a long history of injury in Japan, and has already had two injuries here. Think of it like this: he is our entire sample size. If 100% of pitchers in the major leagues missed as much time as he has, we would conclude that teams need to take better care of their pitchers. So, in this case, its entirely possible that he should actually be batting less, not more. But, we play him more because we want him to push himself, and we think he can handle it moving forward. It is unfathomably stupid to push him past what he has ever done before, deviating from the plan put together by everyone, because we want to see if he can hit an arbitrary mark of at bats without snapping in half like a twig. Its no different than if the Dodgers last year decided to pitch Kershaw every other day, because more Kershaw = better Dodgers. Its incredibly short sighted. During the playoffs, you push your players and see if they can play more - it makes sense when you're in the sprint. Its insane when you're in the marathon.

Its important to remember here - when Ohtani isn't playing, he isn't just messing around chilling out at home. He is doing batting practice every day. He is pitching bullpen sessions most days. Every single day his body is getting more work than anyone else on the team. Every day. We have NEVER seen someone do this in the baseball environment he is in. We haven't seen a 23 year old try to do this since Babe Ruth - and there is a reason he stopped doing it, even though his league was much less work intensive.

What he said 

[Hubs]

*To Clarify, I think he hits that in 2nd or 3rd year in the league, not this year.

[Angel Oracle]

5 hours ago, CubsFan said:

I believe rookie of the year, you just need to play a certain number of games to qualify as a rookie.

MPV and Cy Young I don't think there are any qualification minimums but obviously the more stats you have the better.

It was 1959, but Willie McCovey won NL ROTY despite playing in only 52 games (1.085 OPS) for the Giants MLB team after his late July promotion.

[CubsFan]

3 hours ago, Hubs said:

I think Ohtani can eventually hit the qualifying 503 PA needed for the batting title (3.1 per team game 3.1 x 162 = 502.2).

However, he'd have to be the DH for 110-120 games, and hit higher in the batting order (like 4th).

To DH that much, he basically will have to DH almost every day he doesn't pitch, which would mean hitting on most days he doesn't pitch. I think if they stick to the once a week pitching things that Tuesday or Friday is the best day for him to pitch, if you intend to give him the day off hitting before he pitches. (Since Monday is the most common day off).

If he pitched every Tuesday for instance, he'd have 11 Mondays already off, and then be off the rest of the Mondays.  But then he'd basically have to hit every other day. If you take 162 and subtract 27 or so starts, then 16 days off for days he doesn't pitch or hit, you're already at 120 games. And while he will eventually hit in NL Parks, realistically that's 2-3 starts per year, max.

 

 

His MVP season in Japan it says he hit in 104 games out of 146 total = 71%

thars translates to 115 games in a 162 game season

[Angelsjunky]

Ohtani's hit in 19 of the Angels 37 games, which is a pace of 83 games and a bit over 300 PA. 

As has been said, this is month two of year one. The only change I think we'll see this year is him moving up in the batting order. But I imagine the Angels will try to remain disciplined and keep him on the above pace, for the most part, so maybe he finishes with 80-90 games as a hitter, 300-350 PA. Perhaps next year they fit in a few more starts and up it to 90-100 games, 350-400 PA.

At most I see them having a weekly schedule for Ohtani like so:

Pitch off Hit Hit Hit Hit off

They can try to align it so that one of his off days falls the team's day off, but the team doesn't have a day off every week and presumably it won't always align. In a best-case scenario that would be hitting in four out of six games, but realistically it will probably be less - so maybe 100-110 games, and 400-450 PA.