Calhoun and Bunting

[Angels#1Fan]

One of the best bunters in history (maybe the best) only had a 49% career success rate bunting for a hit. 

Most players don't even come close to that percentage and I seriously doubt that Kole would either.

[Griffey's Corner]

15 minutes ago, UndertheHalo said:

Of course I do, better is better.  But I don’t think they’ll ever take the shift off him.  It’ll just be a cat and mouse game that Kole is going to lose.  The only realistic solution for Kole is to actually start hitting like a major league player again.  If he can’t he can’t.  There’s no gimmick fix for this. 

I am confused on your post? Why would Kole lose??? Does Kole not have eyes??? When he steps in the batters box he LOOKS. If there is a shift he bunts or keeps his hands back and lets the ball travel farther in the zone and hits it to LF. If there is no shift than he just swings away like the .257 hitter he is.

[krAbs]

Just now, UndertheHalo said:

I don’t think you’re being a dick. But teams can do a lot to limit the bunt.  The pitcher can make it difficult.  They can see him trying to bunt and back off the shift.  Then he’s back to swinging.  Which doesn’t seem ideal for success. This guy isn’t going to step into the box and lay down a perfect bunt on his first attempt.  The whole thing just seems fu*ked to me.

TBH, if Calhoun can mess with the defense to the point where they are running back and forth depending on if he is showing bunt or not, that's a massive success in my book. Also, I thought you were the one who wanted him swinging.

To me, the point of the bunt is for him to get back to swinging, but having a more open field to do it with. If they shift again, he can show bunt at the last second. As long as that's a possibility, they really have to limit the shift they put on him. Again, this isn't going to fix him. But man, anything that makes him less of a black hole at this point...I really would prefer him to go down and work in the minors and figure this out there, but if we are gonna keep trotting him out there every day...

[Angels#1Fan]

3 minutes ago, UndertheHalo said:

I don’t think you’re being a dick.

I don't think anyone here is being a dick..I think what's happening here is that people just assume that Kole would easily beat the shift by bunting therfore breaking out of his slump.

 

[Griffey's Corner]

4 minutes ago, UndertheHalo said:

I don’t think you’re being a dick. But teams can do a lot to limit the bunt.  The pitcher can make it difficult.  They can see him trying to bunt and back off the shift.  Then he’s back to swinging.  Which doesn’t seem ideal for success. This guy isn’t going to step into the box and lay down a perfect bunt on his first attempt.  The whole thing just seems fu*ked to me.

Good. Than he broke the shift.... that is all we want!

 

4 minutes ago, Angels#1Fan said:

One of the best bunters in history (maybe the best) only had a 49% career success rate bunting for a hit. 

Most players don't even come close to that percentage and I seriously doubt that Kole would either.

Was the best bunter in history playing with no 3B?

 

I appreciate your thoughts. I am not trying to be a d.... And in no way am I thinking Kole will be a lifetime bunter..... Just do it for a couple of games so the shift goes away.

[UndertheHalo]

10 minutes ago, Griffey's Corner said:

 

 

 

You were specifically saying the ANGELS FRONT OFFICE.....

 

http://www.latimes.com/sports/angels/la-sp-angels-report-20170626-story.html

 

have fun reading and feeling the burn.

Genius, that entire article is an argument against analytics.  Is reading comprehension something you struggle with ? 

And neither myself or anyone else in this thread has referenced the Angels internal analytics.  Your article didn’t at any point either.  Enjoy your self “burn”

Also, do you really expect that the Angels are going to come out and say anything else ? Do you expect that they’re going to publicly confirm that their 25 million or whatever player is one of the worst hitters in the league ? Figure it out mang. 

Edited May 8, 2018 by UndertheHalo

[Griffey's Corner]

Maybe we cannot fix Kole and he is now just a really crappy hitter. But I would rather Kole hit .220 because there is no shift.... than Kole hit .167 into the shift. Because that is better for the Angels. And honestly I think Kole hitting .167 is very much mental as the shift is messing with his mind.

[UndertheHalo]

8 minutes ago, krAbs said:

TBH, if Calhoun can mess with the defense to the point where they are running back and forth depending on if he is showing bunt or not, that's a massive success in my book. Also, I thought you were the one who wanted him swinging.

To me, the point of the bunt is for him to get back to swinging, but having a more open field to do it with. If they shift again, he can show bunt at the last second. As long as that's a possibility, they really have to limit the shift they put on him. Again, this isn't going to fix him. But man, anything that makes him less of a black hole at this point...I really would prefer him to go down and work in the minors and figure this out there, but if we are gonna keep trotting him out there every day...

I’m being hypothetical.  I do want him swinging.  I’m just responding to your questions,

i don’t think Kole would ever command the kind of respect that would get shifts moving around and yet.  If he somehow did I don’t think it’s that big a deal to move a shift around.  As you know.  This is done constantly in game.  Anyway, this is all just hypothetical nonsense.  My entire original point was that this great frustration with him not bunting is somewhat silly.  And blaming Scoscia for it is completely ridiculous.

Edited May 8, 2018 by UndertheHalo

[krAbs]

1 minute ago, Angels#1Fan said:

I don't think anyone here is being a dick..I think what's happening here is that people just assume that Kole would easily beat the shift by bunting therfore breaking out of his slump.

 

Right. And your point is that he probably wouldn't be able to bunt. Someone posted a bit ago about how statistical evidence shows that batters who have basically never bunted are only 2% worse than batters who have, so...IDK. It seems like a flimsy argument to me that Kole is somehow totally unable to pull it off. I honestly think its more of a pride thing. Even if he did, it probably wouldn't break the slump. But man, if it makes it more bearable, I'm all for it.

[Angels#1Fan]

1 minute ago, Griffey's Corner said:

Good. Than he broke the shift.... that is all we want!

 

Was the best bunter in history playing with no 3B?

 

I appreciate your thoughts. I am not trying to be a d.... And in no way am I thinking Kole will be a lifetime bunter..... Just do it for a couple of games so the shift goes away.

It was an example bro, not an absolute or an assumption!

Again, you assume Kole can beat the shift by bunting because you think it's easy for him to do..it's why you have suggested it..you think it's easy.

According to you all he has to do is bunt a few times and problem solved..sorry but that's nonsense.

[Angels#1Fan]

5 minutes ago, Griffey's Corner said:

Maybe we cannot fix Kole and he is now just a really crappy hitter. But I would rather Kole hit .220 because there is no shift.... than Kole hit .167 into the shift. Because that is better for the Angels. And honestly I think Kole hitting .167 is very much mental as the shift is messing with his mind.

Again you're assuming!

[Griffey's Corner]

 

 

 

4 minutes ago, UndertheHalo said:

Genius, that entire article is an argument against analytics.  Is reading comprehension something you struggle with ? 

And neither myself or anyone else in this thread has referenced the Angels internal analytics.  Your article didn’t at any point either.  Enjoy your self “burn”

Also, do you really expect that the Angels are going to come out and say anything else ? Do you expect that they’re going to publicly confirm that their 25 million or whatever player is one of the worst hitters in the league ? Figure it out mang. 

if you read the article it very clearly states that Eppler & Scioscia & the Angels front office think Pujols is doing a great job because he knocked in 100 runs and they are ignoring anything the analytics might say.

 

So when you say you trust the Angels front office as they would not do anything that goes against the analytics and trusting the analytics than what I am doing is showing you direct proof to not be so sure of yourself & your statements.

 

And furthermore I do not care what the PR spin is on it. The proof is in the pudding as the Angels have Pujols penciled in just about everyday at the clean up spot. That is not about PR.... they have him there because for whatever reason they are choosing to ignore the analytics.

 

To be honest I do not want to be difficult but please do not waste my time until you can come back with a better argument. If you cannot do that than I will choose not to respond.

[krAbs]

1 minute ago, UndertheHalo said:

I’m being hypothetical.  I do want him swinging.  I’m just responding to your questions,

i don’t think Kole would ever command the kind of respect that would get shifts moving around and yet.  If he somehow did I don’t think it’s that big a deal to move a shift around.  As you know.  This is done constantly in game.  

If they don't move the shift, the bunt might be really effective actually. I guess I assume that you can transition to a bunting position faster than a defense can undo a shift - and even if you can't, you are forcing last second changes in the defense, which is certainly not ideal for them. It seems like there are two situations: 1. the defense is shifted, and cole should take the "free"ish base by bunting, or 2. the defense is in a more standard formation, in which cole should hit and try to fix his swing. I don't think I've ever seen a defense go from standard to shift position based on what the batter is showing, but I may be wrong there.

[Dick B Back]

This thread be crazy mang!

[Griffey's Corner]

1 minute ago, Angels#1Fan said:

Again you're assuming!

Assumptions nothing. I watch the games. I see all the time Kole has a nice at bat only for it to go down in the box score as an out.

 

Bunting is easy spend 20 minutes a day. It's a lot easier than taking a full swing... which is something that MLB players can all do. I am sorry man if you are getting paid 10 million freakin dollars a year to play a game and you were never taught how to bunt than get off my F..... team. 

 

What if it is Game 7 of the WS and winning run is on 3rd with one out and Kole does not know how to bunt. 

 

I have seen Kole bunt for  a hit before to beat the shift.... he is actually pretty good at it.

[Angels#1Fan]

3 minutes ago, krAbs said:

Right. And your point is that he probably wouldn't be able to bunt. Someone posted a bit ago about how statistical evidence shows that batters who have basically never bunted are only 2% worse than batters who have, so...IDK. It seems like a flimsy argument to me that Kole is somehow totally unable to pull it off. I honestly think its more of a pride thing. Even if he did, it probably wouldn't break the slump. But man, if it makes it more bearable, I'm all for it.

I'm not saying that "Kole is totally unable to pull it off". The fact that the average bunter is no better or worse than 2% means nothing as it relates to a specific player.

Are you assuming that Kole (at the worst) is no more than 2% worse than the best bunters? What if he's 80% worse? lol

[UndertheHalo]

1 minute ago, krAbs said:

If they don't move the shift, the bunt might be really effective actually. I guess I assume that you can transition to a bunting position faster than a defense can undo a shift - and even if you can't, you are forcing last second changes in the defense, which is certainly not ideal for them. It seems like there are two situations: 1. the defense is shifted, and cole should take the "free"ish base by bunting, or 2. the defense is in a more standard formation, in which cole should hit and try to fix his swing. I don't think I've ever seen a defense go from standard to shift position based on what the batter is showing, but I may be wrong there.

You’re not wrong.  But we’ve never seen a hitter go up trying to bunt constantly.  I think you have to realistically assume he won’t execute a bunt at will and the defense will have an idea of what he’s trying to do.  I don’t think it would be that difficult of an adjustment for an infield defense if it becomes necessary.  The whole idea just devolves into such a stupid mess.  And like I said, I doubt the result will be favorable for Calhoun. 

[krAbs]

1 minute ago, Angels#1Fan said:

I'm not saying that "Kole is totally unable to pull it off". The fact that the average bunter is no better or worse than 2% means nothing as it relates to a specific player.

Are you assuming that Kole (at the worst) is no more than 2% worse than the best bunters? What if he's 80% worse? lol

What if he's 80% better?

[krAbs]

1 minute ago, UndertheHalo said:

You’re not wrong.  But we’ve never seen a hitter go up trying to bunt constantly.  I think you have to realistically assume he won’t execute a bunt at will and the defense will have an idea of what he’s trying to do.  I don’t think it would be that difficult of an adjustment for an infield defense if it becomes necessary.  The whole idea just devolves into such a stupid mess.  And like I said, I doubt the result will be favorable for Calhoun. 

For sure. I think its an easy adjustment, but I think you do have to pick if you are predicting that he will bunt or swing. And I think that Calhoun can make that choice later than the defense can. In fact, I would be shocked if the defense can make that adjustment faster than the better.

[Blarg]

1 hour ago, UndertheHalo said:

1)Why are you guys pretending that bunting is such a guaranteed thing ?

2)Calhoun hardly ever bunts and probably isn’t great at it.  

3) Even if it works out; are a handful of cheap singles really that important ?

4)Calhoun’s problem isn’t the shift.  His problem is inability to make good contact with the baseball.  His problem is horrible swings and horrible AB’s.  Since the first game he’s rarely hit anything hard.  

5) Is it mental ?

6) Is it physical ?

I don’t know.  He appears to not be seeing the ball.  You sound ridiculous going along with this “Scoscia isn’t a leader” because he hasn’t ordered Calhoun to bunt.  Some of you guys will blame Scoscia for literally anything.  Now Calhoun’s struggles are because of Scioscia.  Lol. 

1) It isn't guaranteed, no at bat is but the success rate is higher when there is no fielder near where the ball is directed.

2) Practice, it's how players get better at any given skill they are lacking. 

3) Are you nuts? A few cheap hits is what propels offenses and raises a players batting average from DFA to above replacement level.

4) Calhoun's problem is the shift, he is a pull hitter trying to find a hole in a four man right side. Reducing that to three opens holes to get something to get through.

5) Yes

6) See 2

I'm not blaming Scioscia but I do believe that the manager needs to make adjustments greater than simply giving a player a couple days off. That would include changing the game plan for each at bat until circumstances change.

[Griffey's Corner]

1 minute ago, Angels#1Fan said:

I'm not saying that "Kole is totally unable to pull it off". The fact that the average bunter is no better or worse than 2% means nothing as it relates to a specific player.

Are you assuming that Kole (at the worst) is no more than 2% worse than the best bunters? What if he's 80% worse? lol

Without getting into screwy statistics that do not sound accurate. i will only say this if you suck at something than you better start practicing it. Mike Trout did not get to be the best by being lazy. I am sure kole can find time to take 20 minutes a day and work on dropping the ball down the 3b line..... or even on the left side of the infield....lol.

[Griffey's Corner]

1 minute ago, Blarg said:

1) It isn't guaranteed, no at bat is but the success rate is higher when there is no fielder near where the ball is directed.

2) Practice, it's how players get better at any given skill they are lacking. 

3) Are you nuts? A few cheap hits is what propels offenses and raises a players batting average from DFA to above replacement level.

4) Calhoun's problem is the shift, he is a pull hitter trying to find a hole in a four man right side. Reducing that to three opens holes to get something to get through.

5) Yes

6) See 2

I'm not blaming Scioscia but I do believe that the manager needs to make adjustments greater than simply giving a player a couple days off. That would include changing the game plan for each at bat until circumstances change.

Another great post by Blarg. Why can't you guys be more like him?

[mulwin444]

41 minutes ago, Griffey's Corner said:

really are these the same analytics people that say that Pujols is doing a great job because he had over 100 RBI's......

You missed your calling.  Time to show those no-nothings in the Angels front office how it's done.

[UndertheHalo]

16 minutes ago, Griffey's Corner said:

 

 

 

 

if you read the article it very clearly states that Eppler & Scioscia & the Angels front office think Pujols is doing a great job because he knocked in 100 runs and they are ignoring anything the analytics might say.

 

So when you say you trust the Angels front office as they would not do anything that goes against the analytics and trusting the analytics than what I am doing is showing you direct proof to not be so sure of yourself & your statements.

 

And furthermore I do not care what the PR spin is on it. The proof is in the pudding as the Angels have Pujols penciled in just about everyday at the clean up spot. That is not about PR.... they have him there because for whatever reason they are choosing to ignore the analytics.

 

To be honest I do not want to be difficult but please do not waste my time until you can come back with a better argument. If you cannot do that than I will choose not to respond.

Dude I don’t care if you respond or not. 

This is your record in the thread.

• Its Scoscia’s fault that Kole isn’t hitting because he’s not ordering him to bunt. 
• Bunting is easy
• MLB players use to hit .400 “all the time”
• Calhoun would be a .270 hitter if only he would lay down a few bunts and stop the shift from being played against him. 

Maybe I missed some other winners.  I don’t know.

 You said that the Angels, from an analytics perspective held a position that Pujols was a good hitter because of RBI.  That is objectively false.  There was no analytics involved in the comments from Scoscia or Eppler.  The entire premise of that article was that various analytics are bullshit and Pujols is a MOTO hitter cause Pujols and RBI.  That was pretty much the Angels position.  Entirely.  

Its completely different from what Mulwin444 was saying about why they haven’t sat Kole down and told him to bunt. 

Edited May 8, 2018 by UndertheHalo

[Blarg]

4 minutes ago, Griffey's Corner said:

Another great post by Blarg. Why can't you guys be more like him?

They are, for the most part, not jerks.