The Blowpen

[stormngt]

1 hour ago, Pablo said:

Johnson earned the save last night, just didn't get it. The pitch Gamel got the first hit on in the 10th was great; low and away. He just hit it. Happens. After the sacrifice, got a nice infield grounder to Marte who..... I dunno what that was.  Shoulda ended in the 10th, 7-6 halos.

Do you think Marte gets Segura if he didn't throw the ball away.  I am not sure the game ends in the 10th if zmarte throws that cleanly

[AngelsFaninGA]

1 hour ago, Angelsfan1984 said:

Like I said. Sometimes you win when making the wrong move and sometimes you lose making the right one. I don't agree with bringing him out a 2nd time around. He didn't have hitters off balance. Last night wasn't his night. Give credit to the mariners. 

At that point our only remaining relievers were Morris and Paredes, who have both been awful. If Johnson wasn't closing that game out, it was going to be a loss anyway. 

[Pablo]

20 minutes ago, stormngt said:

Do you think Marte gets Segura if he didn't throw the ball away.  I am not sure the game ends in the 10th if zmarte throws that cleanly

That's a good point. Probably not, but I actually like our chances with 1st & 3rd, one out, and Johnson still in his first inning. At this point in his career, I don't think you can squeeze two innings out of him, but I thought he was throwing the ball well in the 10th.

[Warfarin]

1 hour ago, Torridd said:

What do you think we're missing? Besides a couple of tweaks, I think the team has a good chance now.

Realistically, I agree with CubsFan.  We have a competitive team now that should contend and hopefully get a wild card, but we probably aren't yet on the tier of the Yankees, Red Sox, Astros.  We probably need another top end starter and another strong reliever to get us there.  Maybe another significant LH power bat to provide the lineup some balance too. 

[Stradling]

If we can’t get two innings out of Johnson then we are in big trouble.  Bottom line is it was a team loss.  

[TroutField]

Just now, SuperTroopers said:

If we can’t get two innings out of Johnson then we are in big trouble.  Bottom line is it was a team loss.  

Bottom line we should have just shelled out the cash for Petit, he was so valuable to the bullpen. 

[Stradling]

Just now, TroutField said:

Bottom line we should have just shelled out the cash for Petit, he was so valuable to the bullpen. 

Yep, Petit would help a ton.  It’s weird that this is the part of the team he ignored this year.  Last off season Eppler brought in a ton of guys.  This year Luke Bard, who we gave back to the Twins.  Johnson was a means to an end to get international money.  

[Pablo]

I understand the numbers crunch, but I wish we'd found a way to hang on to Bard. One terrible outing against Boston, but beyond that looked really good. 

[CubsFan]

1 hour ago, Torridd said:

What do you think we're missing? Besides a couple of tweaks, I think the team has a good chance now.

I think for the playoffs especially the initial 5 game series you need 2 stud aces and a solid third.  I dunno if the Angels have that.  Ohtani will probably take one year to be an ace.   And even if he is a stud by October, the 2nd and 3rd pitching spots are really suspect for Post Season play.  

Last Year:

Yankees:

Severino

Tanaka

Sabathia

 

Boston:

Sale

Price (not available as a starter in playoffs which is why they got crushed by Houton)

 

Houston:

Verlander

Keuchel

 

LA:

Kershaw

Darvish

Rich Hill

 

Washington:

Scherzer

Starssberg

Geo

 

Cleveland

Kluber

Bauer

Tomlin

 

Then there is no bullpen or stud closer.  Last year our starting pitching was great (the Professor, Lester, Arieta) in the playoffs but even then the middle relief blew all those games in the playoffs even though we had an above average closer in Wade Davis.  

Also Right Field needs an upgrade.  The best lineup I see would be to put Ohtani at RF and Marte at 1B.  Or if Pujols can still play Right Field.  You need a murderer's row 1-9 in the playoffs now because you have to outscore your opponent.  The way the games trending you can't expect complete game shutouts from even the best aces.

 

 

[Slegnaac]

No way Pujols plays RF 

[Stradling]

What is funny I am not worried about our starting pitchers in a playoff series.  I worry about the pen in a playoff series.  

[stormngt]

1 hour ago, Warfarin said:

Realistically, I agree with CubsFan.  We have a competitive team now that should contend and hopefully get a wild card, but we probably aren't yet on the tier of the Yankees, Red Sox, Astros.  We probably need another top end starter and another strong reliever to get us there.  Maybe another significant LH power bat to provide the lineup some balance too. 

Can we get off the Astros jock?  I am bitten my tongue after reading comments "we are fighting for the 2nd wild card spot" or "not on the same level as Astros".

We are basically tied for first with the Astros, we beat them 2 of 3 on their field and we have played basically a similar schedule.   

[Dick B Back]

36 minutes ago, SuperTroopers said:

What is funny I am not worried about our starting pitchers in a playoff series.  I worry about the pen in a playoff series.  

Agreed. Since the starters can’t make it through 6, we need five good relievers to finish off a game. And they need to be able to do it every game. We don’t have that yet.

[Angel Oracle]

10 hours ago, TroutField said:

Wow what an absolutely disgusting performance by Jim Johnson, 2 blown saves by him... that’s wonderful. Poor offense fights back 3 times and still can’t win 

They are running Johnson on fumes though, too many innings already.

The starters are pitching deeper into games now.   Eventually, Middleton returns next week, Wood shortly after.  

They do need an Herrera though.

[Warfarin]

3 minutes ago, stormngt said:

Can we get off the Astros jock?  I am bitten my tongue after reading comments "we are fighting for the 2nd wild card spot" or "not on the same level as Astros".

We are basically tied for first with the Astros, we beat them 2 of 3 on their field and we have played basically a similar schedule.   

They are the defending champs and loaded with talent.  It is okay to acknowledge that.  Yes, the records are essentially the same now.  The Diamondbacks have a better record than the Astros, but does that mean I think they are a better team than the Astros over the long haul?  No.

The Astros did a great job of tearing their team down and building what they have now.  It took patience and multiple years of being god awful to get there, but they did it.

We did not engage in a teardown, but we have similarly and impressively rebuilt our team pretty quickly.  I feel our talent level is not on par with the Astros currently, but I also feel we have significantly closed the gap and will continue to do so.  

It's okay to respect your divisional rival and what they have accomplished.  

[Docwaukee]

this pen is who I thought they were.  A little worse than mediocre.  The biggest problem is that they are all the same.  So there isn't an anchor or group of three guys to get us that last 9 outs.  Middleton and Anderson would be a good start.  

It is what it is.  They're not horrible.  They're just not very good.  

Also, let's be realistic.  Last year was an aberration.  It was basically the same collection of similar talent that over performed.  

It's disappointing in that it was fairly predictable.  I am sure they have metrics to support what they did but it's the one area I feel like there's some intangibles that metrics don't capture.  

At the end of the day, the pen isn't talented enough to sustain a particular performance level during the 162 games that gets us into the playoffs.  

 

[stormngt]

Just now, Warfarin said:

They are the defending champs and loaded with talent.  It is okay to acknowledge that.  Yes, the records are essentially the same now.  The Diamondbacks have a better record than the Astros, but does that mean I think they are a better team than the Astros over the long haul?  No.

The Astros did a great job of tearing their team down and building what they have now.  It took patience and multiple years of being god awful to get there, but they did it.

We did not engage in a teardown, but we have similarly and impressively rebuilt our team pretty quickly.  I feel our talent level is not on par with the Astros currently, but I also feel we have significantly closed the gap and will continue to do so.  

It's okay to respect your divisional rival and what they have accomplished.  

So let's cancel the season and award them the title! 

They still have to win the games and we have outplayed them early in the season.  You guys are more than just acknowledging how good the Astros are.

Have the Dbacks played the red Sox and yanks 6 times?

Have the Stros even played the Red Sox?

F××× the Astros! Too many here believe we are playing for the wild card.  F that we are playing for the division.

[Dick B Back]

With what we have when Middleton comes back (if?), is Johnson, Cam, Anderson, and Middleton for 6 through 9 and Alvarez as the lefty guy. The problems are:

1. They can’t be expected to pitch well everyday cause the starters can’t get through 6 or more.

2. The rest of the pen is scum.

[Warfarin]

9 minutes ago, stormngt said:

So let's cancel the season and award them the title! 

They still have to win the games and we have outplayed them early in the season.  You guys are more than just acknowledging how good the Astros are.

Have the Dbacks played the red Sox and yanks 6 times?

Have the Stros even played the Red Sox?

F××× the Astros! Too many here believe we are playing for the wild card.  F that we are playing for the division.

Quite the overreaction.

Over the course of a 162 game season, it is likely the Astros are better than us, given their talent level.

Does that mean our season is over and we should hand them the 2018 WS?  Of course not, that's a silly overreaction.

Once you're in the playoffs, anything  can happen in short 5 and 7 game series.  We have seen many Wild Card teams (including our beloved 2002 Angels) storm through the playoffs and win it all.  In that regard too, the Angels had the best team (record wise) in 2014.  We got swept in the 2014 ALDS by the wild card Royals.

As I said, it is okay to respect your divisional rival and acknowledge they are likely the better team over a very large sample size.  Likewise though, we are well positioned to make the playoffs, and once in the playoffs, anything can happen, especially if you have the best player in the game on your side (thank you, Trout!).  Just gotta get there, which I feel we will.

[CubsFan]

4 minutes ago, stormngt said:

So let's cancel the season and award them the title! 

They still have to win the games and we have outplayed them early in the season.  You guys are more than just acknowledging how good the Astros are.

Have the Dbacks played the red Sox and yanks 6 times?

Have the Stros even played the Red Sox?

F××× the Astros! Too many here believe we are playing for the wild card.  F that we are playing for the division.

It's not about playing for the Wild Card.

It's about is this current team good enough to win the World Series.  No, it's not.

The team can win the division but winning a 5 or 7 game series at the elite level is a different thing.

In the regular season every team goes through a 5 or 6 man rotation but come playoff time, If you have two aces then you can play them 4 times in a 5 game series or 5 times in a 7 game series.  That is when you need the two studs.  And if you don't have that then you are in trouble.

 

 

[stormngt]

Just now, Warfarin said:

Quite the overreaction.

Over the course of a 162 game season, it is likely the Astros are better than us, given their talent level.

Does that mean our season is over and we should hand them the 2018 WS?  Of course not, that's a silly overreaction.

Once you're in the playoffs, anything  can happen in short 5 and 7 game series.  We have seen many Wild Card teams (including our beloved 2002 Angels) storm through the playoffs and win it all.  In that regard too, the Angels had the best team (record wise) in 2014.  We got swept in the 2014 ALDS by the wild card Royals.

As I said, it is okay to respect your divisional rival and acknowledge they are likely the better team over a very large sample size.  Likewise though, we are well positioned to make the playoffs, and once in the playoffs, anything can happen.  Just gotta get there, which I feel we will.

Your missing mu point.  So let me try to clarify it.

Yes the Astros are stocked. Yes they are a great team.  Yes it's fine to acknowledge that.

However F them!  We are cut competing for the 2nd wild card we are competing for the division until we are mathematically eliminated from it.

We have earned that respect!

[stormngt]

3 minutes ago, CubsFan said:

It's not about playing for the Wild Card.

It's about is this current team good enough to win the World Series.  No, it's not.

The team can win the division but winning a 5 or 7 game series at the elite level is a different thing.

In the regular season every team goes through a 5 or 6 man rotation but come playoff time, If you have two aces then you can play them 4 times in a 5 game series or 5 times in a 7 game series.  That is when you need the two studs.  And if you don't have that then you are in trouble.

 

 

Than say that and quit assuming we are playing for 2nd place!

[CubsFan]

1 minute ago, stormngt said:

Than say that and quit assuming we are playing for 2nd place!

I have never said we are playing for second place.  angels can win the division.

But winning a 5 or 7 game series is an entirely different thing without two aces.

ohtani may be a dominant ace by October (but it's not a sure thing thus year)  but I don't see anyone else on the current roster that is another dominant ace.

 

 

[Blarg]

Currently the Angels pitching staff is getting murdered in the 2nd, 8th and 9th innings. 

The starters have produced 162.3 innings of work, the bullpen 140. That is an unsustainable ratio where the starters are pitching less than 1 more inning than the bullpen. 

Want to see a number that will blow your mind? The 2002 Angels starters threw 1,007.2 innings, the bullpen 444.2. It was a lot easier to manage for a W  when you weren't burning up your three best arm every game. 

Is the pitching that much worse or are the analytics saying pull your starter before he hits the third run through the batting order wrong? Wrong simply because you are putting inferior pitchers into the game more often. More often means more exposure and more work for guys that never were capable of these inning loads over multiple games. 

I couldn't tell you but from my ass on the couch perspective pulling starters because they gave up two runs over 5 innings is an unreasonable expectation of perfection. And when you keep doing it game after game you are creating 5 inning pitchers and unstable bullpens since you have to do the triple A shuffle twice a week just to have a "fresh" arm but not necessarily a good one. Parades is just one example. 

 

[floplag]

Blame the starters all you want but they are what they are and they arent changing.  I would literally be shocked if we see a complete game this season.
We knew what they were, wee knew this was what we had, and we left the pen in the hands of cast offs once again.  
Last season it was the difference between playing in the post and watching it as the pen blew at least 5-6... lets pray history doesnt repeat.