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Are the Angels Reinventing Roster Construction?


totdprods

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I started this notion on the thread about the Angels acquiring Cozart/Headley, but I started doing my usual thing where I kept going and did not want to take away from the discussion there. 

I posted an idea about the Angels acquiring both players - Cozart and Headley, and mapped out a possible 25-man roster that looked like this: 

Main lineup (9): 2B Kinsler, RF Calhoun, CF Trout, LF Upton, 1B Pujols/Headley/Valbuena, 3B Cozart, SS Simmons, DH Ohtani/Pujols/Headley/Valbuena, C Maldonado
Bench (3): C Perez, Headley, Valbuena, flex player (4th OF or RP)
Rotation (5): Richards, Skaggs, Shoemaker, Heaney, Ohtani, flex player, 6th SP
Bullpen (6): Parker, Bedrosian, Johnson, Alvarez, Ramirez, Bard, flex RP
23 players full-time, 2 rotating 'flex' players based on need.

Cozart backs up 2B/SS when they need days off. You only recall a 4th OF when Trout needs a day off. Headley, who replaces Cron, can drop in at LF in a pinch, much like Marte was able to do. If you're a little concerned about the Angels bench being heavy on old, limited vet infielders...good news for you is that Valbuena, Headley, and Kinsler could all be gone in '18, and depending on how Cozart plays, he could just assume any of their roles, or hold his own.

Your pool of flex players includes: Hermosillo, Tropeano, Bridwell, Barria, Castillo, Paredes, Pena, Middleton, and any of the minor league FAs you sign and feel comfortable DFAing afterwards.

I like this plan because you effectively destroy the conventional concept of having to carry a UT IF who plays SS or a 4th OF who plays CF on your bench. You just create a couple rotating spots on the 25 man and rotate through the player you need as needed - a 6th starter, a 7th reliever, or only one of the usual 'traditional' bench player needs. We've all mentioned our concerns about our SPs not remaining healthy of having an innings-limit, this allows you to effectively use all SPs on the 40-man throughout the year, maybe with all of their starts mapped out like was discussed with Ohtani. There was also a recent tweet that the Angels had begun discussing their rotation plans with their current MLB staff. Add in the comments about multi-inning relievers, and the pieces start to fall into place. Perhaps guys go longer between starts, and get slotted in for a long-relief appearance between starts? This will help keep Albert's legs fresh too, and ease the playing time demands on Ohtani.

We have heard that a big part of Eppler's Ohtani presentation was an entire schedule's worth of playing time mapped out. We've also seen more in-depth writing about the Angels implementing a plan based where they utilize a 6-man rotation and rotating starters between AAA and the bullpen. Multiple Eppler quotes recently have stressed putting the health of an athlete first, and during his time, we've seen the Angels emphasize strength testing and biometrics far more frequently, and the PRP injections have seemingly helped. Optionable, flexible players have always been a part of Eppler's vision.

I'm starting to think behind the scenes the Angels are working on a fairly revolutionary way of managing player's health and playing time while making full use of exploiting any roster loophole possible, and this vision may have contributed to Ohtani's interest here. It's not just the Angels - several teams were open to the idea of a 6-man rotation and two-way players, even lesser ones like Anthony Gose, Brett Eibner, and Christian Bethancourt, who can fill dual-roles like lefty-specialist, back-up catcher, and 4th OF, are being discussed more frequently. 

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Those flex players would need to have minor league options. Before every series, the staff evaluates the roster to see who they will need for that series, a 4th of'er or another bp arm. This might mean a lot of back and forth between Anaheim and Salt Lake. If the Pen has been taxed too much, that reliever is up. Otherwise, you have the 4th of'er up.

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In any 3 or 4 game series that we play & Ohtani doesn't pitch he could be our backup OF. That way we could carry an extra RP for the bullpen that series.

But the part that seems troublesome is the #6 starting pitcher being a flex player. Isn't their a rule that says (and correct me if I'm wrong), that any player that goes back to the minor leagues must remain there for 10 day's before he can be recalled back to the parent club? 

I hope that if more & more teams go to a 6 man rotation that the MLB adds a 26th man to the roster. 

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11 minutes ago, fanfromday1 said:

In any 3 or 4 game series that we play & Ohtani doesn't pitch he could be our backup OF. That way we could carry an extra RP for the bullpen that series.

But the part that seems troublesome is the #6 starting pitcher being a flex player. Isn't their a rule that says (and correct me if I'm wrong), that any player that goes back to the minor leagues must remain there for 10 day's before he can be recalled back to the parent club? 

I hope that if more & more teams go to a 6 man rotation that the MLB adds a 26th man to the roster. 

Eppler has said they don't anticipate Ohtani playing OF "this year" but they haven't said anything about 1B. I could see him being an emergency OF, especially as the season goes on, and I wouldn't be surprised if it becomes part of the plan as his career advances. 

Regarding the 6th starter, it will be complicated, but Bridwell, Shoe, Tropeano, Heaney, Skaggs, and Barria all can be optioned throughout the year (some of course would be more apt to this than others) and your pen choices such as Jewell, Pena, Castillo, Bard, and Paredes all have some multi-inning capability too.

They have enough SP depth (knock on wood) to shuttle 2-3 guys around that 6th spot as needed to get around the 10-day period, and they have the option of starting a multi-inning reliever (say J.C. Ramirez) in that place too - especially if the pen has other long-relievers or a starter 'resting' in there.

I'm almost picturing something like ST where guys have scheduled days and number of pitches. It wouldn't be that structured, but it could be close.

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36 minutes ago, greginpsca said:

Those flex players would need to have minor league options. Before every series, the staff evaluates the roster to see who they will need for that series, a 4th of'er or another bp arm. This might mean a lot of back and forth between Anaheim and Salt Lake. If the Pen has been taxed too much, that reliever is up. Otherwise, you have the 4th of'er up.

All of the flex pool players mentioned have options, except Rule V Bard.

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2 hours ago, totdprods said:

I started this notion on the thread about the Angels acquiring Cozart/Headley, but I started doing my usual thing where I kept going and did not want to take away from the discussion there. 

I posted an idea about the Angels acquiring both players - Cozart and Headley, and mapped out a possible 25-man roster that looked like this: 

Main lineup (9): 2B Kinsler, RF Calhoun, CF Trout, LF Upton, 1B Pujols/Headley/Valbuena, 3B Cozart, SS Simmons, DH Ohtani/Pujols/Headley/Valbuena, C Maldonado
Bench (3): C Perez, Headley, Valbuena, flex player (4th OF or RP)
Rotation (5): Richards, Skaggs, Shoemaker, Heaney, Ohtani, flex player, 6th SP
Bullpen (6): Parker, Bedrosian, Johnson, Alvarez, Ramirez, Bard, flex RP
23 players full-time, 2 rotating 'flex' players based on need.

Cozart backs up 2B/SS when they need days off. You only recall a 4th OF when Trout needs a day off. Headley, who replaces Cron, can drop in at LF in a pinch, much like Marte was able to do. If you're a little concerned about the Angels bench being heavy on old, limited vet infielders...good news for you is that Valbuena, Headley, and Kinsler could all be gone in '18, and depending on how Cozart plays, he could just assume any of their roles, or hold his own.

Your pool of flex players includes: Hermosillo, Tropeano, Bridwell, Barria, Castillo, Paredes, Pena, Middleton, and any of the minor league FAs you sign and feel comfortable DFAing afterwards.

I like this plan because you effectively destroy the conventional concept of having to carry a UT IF who plays SS or a 4th OF who plays CF on your bench. You just create a couple rotating spots on the 25 man and rotate through the player you need as needed - a 6th starter, a 7th reliever, or only one of the usual 'traditional' bench player needs. We've all mentioned our concerns about our SPs not remaining healthy of having an innings-limit, this allows you to effectively use all SPs on the 40-man throughout the year, maybe with all of their starts mapped out like was discussed with Ohtani. There was also a recent tweet that the Angels had begun discussing their rotation plans with their current MLB staff. Add in the comments about multi-inning relievers, and the pieces start to fall into place. Perhaps guys go longer between starts, and get slotted in for a long-relief appearance between starts? This will help keep Albert's legs fresh too, and ease the playing time demands on Ohtani.

We have heard that a big part of Eppler's Ohtani presentation was an entire schedule's worth of playing time mapped out. We've also seen more in-depth writing about the Angels implementing a plan based where they utilize a 6-man rotation and rotating starters between AAA and the bullpen. Multiple Eppler quotes recently have stressed putting the health of an athlete first, and during his time, we've seen the Angels emphasize strength testing and biometrics far more frequently, and the PRP injections have seemingly helped. Optionable, flexible players have always been a part of Eppler's vision.

I'm starting to think behind the scenes the Angels are working on a fairly revolutionary way of managing player's health and playing time while making full use of exploiting any roster loophole possible, and this vision may have contributed to Ohtani's interest here. It's not just the Angels - several teams were open to the idea of a 6-man rotation and two-way players, even lesser ones like Anthony Gose, Brett Eibner, and Christian Bethancourt, who can fill dual-roles like lefty-specialist, back-up catcher, and 4th OF, are being discussed more frequently. 

Good post, @totdprods. I think this could work and like you said, they could set a precedence if it works. 

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One step closer for this.

Headley looking a little less likely now, but I could see him replacing Cron still.

Mitch Moreland is someone to keep an eye on - very good defense, another left-handed bat, can offer depth at 1B, LF, and RF. Only cost $5m last year. His numbers have been inflated a bit by playing in Texas and Boston, but he'd be reasonable in place of Cron.

At that point, you only need a 4th OF who can play CF, and that's someone you could simply bring up when Trout needs a day off.

For what it's worth, Upton started 4 games in CF last year as well.

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One of the reasons Cozart is a great signing is that he is essentially both a starting regular and a utility infielder. If Simmons is hurt, he is the SS; if Kinsler is hurt, 2B. Either way, Valbuena slots into 3B. The point being, by having multi-position players, fewer bench players are needed.

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8 minutes ago, SlappyUtilityMIF said:

Bring me the following:

CC

Wade Davis

"Don't be a *itch Let's Sign Mitch"...... for the Lefty 1B

But, I keep thinking of Revere and his Speed! We were pretty dynamic on the bases when we released the Rabbits last year with EYJR, Maybin & Revere when Trout was hurt....

Yes, I will agree that filling the last bench role with another CIF/COF guy in the Moreland, Headley, LoMo mold does significantly slow the team down. That's the biggest flaw. 

But, as much as the speed and SB was nice last year, it also didn't result in a successful offense.

The biggest reason I like adding another left-handed/switch-hitting corner fielder is it adds significant insurance to the risks we are taking - if Cozart's bat proves a fluke, we have Valbuena/whomever. If Kinsler's age catches up with him, Cozart can move to 2nd, and again Valbuena/whomever step in. If Pujols' legs give out or he continues a sub .700 OPS, you've got 1B insurance again in Valbuena/whomever. If Ohtani can't hit? Again, Valbuena/whomever. 

We shouldn't need a 4th OF too often. Have some guys at the ready in AAA and if we need it, bump down that 13th pitcher for a spell. 

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3 minutes ago, Angelsjunky said:

One of the reasons Cozart is a great signing is that he is essentially both a starting regular and a utility infielder. If Simmons is hurt, he is the SS; if Kinsler is hurt, 2B. Either way, Valbuena slots into 3B. The point being, by having multi-position players, fewer bench players are needed.

Yes - it eliminates needing a bench UT IF completely and creates an extra roster spot for a 6th starter/7th or 8th reliever.

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So keep in mind too, that while we may indeed go with a 6 man rotation, we don't really need to keep 6 SPs on the roster all at once.  A number of our starters still have options (Shoemaker, Heaney, Skaggs, Bridwell, Tropeano, Barria, even Ohtani [although I don't see any possibility of him being optioned]).  There's also the DL, which we know will be utilized quite a bit.  So quite often, you might only see 5 active SPs on the roster, with 7 relievers and 13 position players.  This will allow us to keep a 4 man bench most of the time - backup C, 4th OF, corner IF, and.. ??  

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Moreland doesn’t really fit because he’s a lefty who plays the same position as the only other lefty (Valbuena).

At this point Cron starts at first against lefties when Pujols is the DH, which is probably 40 games. So that’s not much playing time for a guy who basically does nothing else. 

What’s a better fit is someone who can play first and some other position, and hits right handed or is a switch hitter. 

Yangervis Solarte plays all 4 positions and is a switch hitter. I don’t know how well he plays them or which side he hits better, but he’s certainly an intriguing fit for any team going with 12 position players.

Also he’s a trade so you don’t have to sell him on playing time (like you might with Eduardo Nunez).

The downside is the Padres can use him and he’s cheap, so they won’t just dump him for nothing.

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3 minutes ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

Moreland doesn’t really fit because he’s a lefty who plays the same position as the only other lefty (Valbuena).

At this point Cron starts at first against lefties when Pujols is the DH, which is probably 40 games. So that’s not much playing time for a guy who basically does nothing else. 

What’s a better fit is someone who can play first and some other position, and hits right handed or is a switch hitter. 

Yangervis Solarte plays all 4 positions and is a switch hitter. I don’t know how well he plays them or which side he hits better, but he’s certainly an intriguing fit for any team going with 12 position players.

Also he’s a trade so you don’t have to sell him on playing time (like you might with Eduardo Nunez).

The downside is the Padres can use him and he’s cheap, so they won’t just dump him for nothing.

I think we've got that guy on our roster already and he's actually better defensively than Solarte or Nunez at both 2b and 3b.  He can play SS in a pinch as the third backup.  He's even gotten some reps in the OF (albeit rare) and at 1b.  He's got 1 option year left.  He's a switch hitter and he still only 25 (entering his age 26 season).  

He's had a wRC+ of 136, 109, and 126 at AAA the last three years with over 1000 plate appearances.  He actually held his own at the major league level.  

He's got very good speed and knows how to walk.  

At this point, I think 'that guy' gets maybe 200-250 plate appearances.  Is spending money or prospects on what isn't much of an upgrade if at all really something that's necessary?  

I personally think we're done on the position player side of things.  

Still worried about SP depth and reliability.   That why I felt like chatwood was a nice target.  I'm intrigued by the Sabathia idea and I think you could throw Lackey into that mix as well.  

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I like your points on this one, and second your opinion on keeping our 25 year old switch hitter on the roster.  Trying to move Cron and Valbuena reasonably might be a tough task.  We don't have an readily apparent backup outfielder though.  I do believe they might be better off keeping Hermosillo at AAA next year, and replacing him with a vet bat though, like Revere.

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10 hours ago, tomsred said:

I like your points on this one, and second your opinion on keeping our 25 year old switch hitter on the roster.  Trying to move Cron and Valbuena reasonably might be a tough task.  We don't have an readily apparent backup outfielder though.  I do believe they might be better off keeping Hermosillo at AAA next year, and replacing him with a vet bat though, like Revere.

Agree.  Mentioned in the other thread that if an OFer gets hurt and is going to be out for awhile, I think the'd consider Hermosillo.  but not as the 4th Ofer.  

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On 12/16/2017 at 9:47 AM, Jeff Fletcher said:

Moreland doesn’t really fit because he’s a lefty who plays the same position as the only other lefty (Valbuena).

At this point Cron starts at first against lefties when Pujols is the DH, which is probably 40 games. So that’s not much playing time for a guy who basically does nothing else. 

What’s a better fit is someone who can play first and some other position, and hits right handed or is a switch hitter. 

Yangervis Solarte plays all 4 positions and is a switch hitter. I don’t know how well he plays them or which side he hits better, but he’s certainly an intriguing fit for any team going with 12 position players.

Also he’s a trade so you don’t have to sell him on playing time (like you might with Eduardo Nunez).

The downside is the Padres can use him and he’s cheap, so they won’t just dump him for nothing.

There is a big assumption here that Albert is actually going to be able to get the majority of reps at first base. Valbuena's defense over there is also sketchy at best. 

We can all keep pointing out the redundancy of Cron on the roster but that ignores that he is easily the best first basemen on the team and the guy who should be playing there every day were we to define someone as the starter. We also have to consider next year's roster as well, since Pujols will be 39 and Valbuena will be gone. That will force the team into spending money they wouldn't have to spend by keeping Cron.

As it's set currently, in an ideal world, Cron probably doesn't have much use on this roster. But once reality sets in, are we prepared to have Valbuena playing 1b every day, even against lefties? Who do we add to the team to platoon with Valbuena when AP is on the DL and Cron is shipped out? Is the team prepared to move on a guy like Solarte to cover Cron's guaranteed at bats and add flexibility to the bench?

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2 minutes ago, AngelsLakersFan said:

There is a big assumption here that Albert is actually going to be able to get the majority of reps at first base. Valbuena's defense over there is also sketchy at best. 

We can all keep pointing out the redundancy of Cron on the roster but that ignores that he is easily the best first basemen on the team and the guy who should be playing there every day were we to define someone as the starter. We also have to consider next year's roster as well, since Pujols will be 39 and Valbuena will be gone. That will force the team into spending money they wouldn't have to spend by keeping Cron.

As it's set currently, in an ideal world, Cron probably doesn't have much use on this roster. But once reality sets in, are we prepared to have Valbuena playing 1b every day, even against lefties? Who do we add to the team to platoon with Valbuena when AP is on the DL and Cron is shipped out? Is the team prepared to move on a guy like Solarte to cover Cron's guaranteed at bats and add flexibility to the bench?

I don’t think anyone expects Pujols to get the “majority” of starts at 1B. I expect 50.

But the more I’ve thought about it, the more I can see a case for keeping Cron. Remember right after the Angels got Valbuena, it looked like Cron lost all his playing time. But Valbuena got hurt and Escobar got hurt, and that created lots of time for Cron.

This year the third baseman is also the backup SS and backup 2B, and Valbuena is the backup 3B, so if any infielder gets hurt, Cron will play everyday. Cozart has been hurt a lot lately, Kinsler is 36, Valbuena has been hurt two years in a row and Pujols is 38.

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3 minutes ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

This year the third baseman is also the backup SS and backup 2B, and Valbuena is the backup 3B, so if any infielder gets hurt, Cron will play everyday. Cozart has been hurt a lot lately, Kinsler is 36, Valbuena has been hurt two years in a row and Pujols is 38.

This is what I'm getting at. While right now you might only pencil him in for 30 starts, I could see an almost likely scenario where he gets 130+ starts. It would be a mistake for the Angels to assume plan A is going to work out like they want it to.

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Pujols gets two or three starts per week at both DH and 1B. 5 games a week minimum. There are around 26.5 or 27  weeks in the season so that would be around 140 games played. Let's say he does slightly less and say that is 62 games at 1st and 76 at DH. That leaves roughly half the DH games for Ohtani or another player and roughly 100 at 1st. Right now those 100 starts at 1st would be split between Cron and Valbuena.

Cozart hasn't played every day ever, so he's likely looking at 125-135 starts. That adds say another 30 for the corner or utility infielder right now. 

There are probably 5-10 more games for Cozart at SS. This further reduces his time at 3B.

Kinsler plays between 145-155 at 2nd leaving say 15 games at 2nd.

The utility infielders then can be expected for 50-60 starts. In addition to the 100 starts at 1st.

This is not enough for three players in Cron, Valbuena, and Cowart. If you consider that there are likely 30-40 starts in the OF it would seem better if they could get someone who can play either Catcher and the OF or 1B. 

 

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