Haren speaks the truth!

[SmallSampleSize]

Right or wrong, no one here actually expects anything else but revisionist history on a fan site...

 

Pujols was touted as the greatest acquisition since the Louisiana purchase.

 

Now it's more toxic than Lohan's crotch.

 

Yikes.

[CaliAngel]

Why is it that when a player is likeable, bandwagons of fans automatically agree with anything they say? 

 

They do?

 

I have to say I think it's refreshing to hear a former insiders opinion that isn't swayed by the team, which is what we get with any interview from anyone within the organization, and it comes off oblivious and its frustrating to hear over and over. For once we're getting an opinion from a guy who was pretty much straightforward the entire time we had him, who is familiar with this type of situation, and doesn't have to kiss Angels' ass anymore! And while I'd say I don't agree with everything he said in that article, I'd say his assessment is more accurate than anything we've gotten from an Angel over the past 3 years. 

 

Even Trumbo last-night stumbled a bit last night during the post game interview when he almost muttered "not playing good baseball," he kinda backtracked and was thinking what he was supposed to say. The guys on this team aren't allowed be straight forward and honest about what's happening on the field, they sugar coat the negatives and it's getting old. 

[AZMike]

I liked Haren, Dipoto should have kept him three years ago

this

[Mark68]

Dan Haren > Jerry DiPoto.  Jerry can't comment because Dan will say "scoreboard baby."  LOL

Ummm....ok...

 

Scoreboard? Oh, ok, because the Nats have a better record. They have hit better than the Angels as represented by the fact that Haren is 4-3, but with a bad ERA and a bad WHIP (1.49).

 

On this team, Haren would be 1-6.

[Lifetime]

I think someone (or two) are missing some sublety

[tomsred]

OK, my thoughts:

 

1.  I think the idea of team chemistry is overemphasized, too often used as a scapegoat for other failures.  Not saying it isn't important.  You just never hear about chemistry problems when a team is winning games.  Other teams break up their chemistry without a noticeable effect the following year.  Look at the Cardinals and how they've played since Pujols' departure. 

 

2.  What is he implying about team chemistry?  Were the guys who brought good chemistry to the team shipped out?  Or did Dipoto and Moreno make mistakes in their offseason acquisitions?  This can be interpreted different ways. 

 

3.  I have no doubts Torii Hunter was a good leader.  Why is it, though, that no other player is capable of stepping up as a leader?  Why isn't Scioscia and his coaches capable of filling that void in leadership?  This is what they are paid to do, to provide leadership. 

 

4.  Haren places the blame on players' performance.  Why then are so many players sucking at once if Scioscia and his coaching staff are doing a good job?  Why is underachievement the norm in Anaheim over the last several years?

My answer to some of your questions is as follows:

 

1. I pretty much agree with you, chemistry is over emphasized and tends to show well when your winning.

 

2. I think he was implying that the team had learned to jell well together as a team, and there was no need to make the amount of changes that were made in total.

 

3. I think he meant that leaders have to develop over a period of months.  Managers, coaches and player leadership qualities are quite different.  A manager makes hard decisions regarding who plays, who sits, many in game decisions, bating orders, etc., and must be in a position to reprimand and encourage a player as necessary.  He shouldn't have to justify every decision he makes, and must be isolated somewhat from the players.  The coaches fill an intermediate role, they can be closer to the players, sometimes consoling and encouraging them.  Player leaders come in all types, part of it is they have to lead by example to some degree to have a much credibility.  Some can be poor performers and be leaders, but I believe that is rare.

 

4. No one is saying that the manager and coaching staff have done an outstanding job this year.  I would think their performance is under review mostly by DiPoto, and somewhat by Moreno.  Not every player is playing poorly compared to their norm.  Unfortunately this team has little depth, and the highest paid players on the team are under performing for various reasons.  A few are injured, and there is no depth to step up and fill the void created by these injuries.

 

Making changes to a baseball team, employees in a company, or almost any situation where team performance is required to succeed will many times set the entire team back a few steps until they learn to work with one another, not always but many times it will.  I believe this wasn't taken into account by either Arte or DiPoto.  I still believe this team will come together and win somewhat consistently, but not until some of the players come back from injury, it's just not a deep enough team.  I've said this in previous years, you need between 40-50 effective players to win a championship.  That's how many different players the Angels run out at the Major League level each year.  Unfortunately our numbers 25-50 on the depth chart are very poor right now compared to other clubs.

[mp170.6]

They do?

 

I have to say I think it's refreshing to hear a former insiders opinion that isn't swayed by the team, which is what we get with any interview from anyone within the organization, and it comes off oblivious and its frustrating to hear over and over. For once we're getting an opinion from a guy who was pretty much straightforward the entire time we had him, who is familiar with this type of situation, and doesn't have to kiss Angels' ass anymore! And while I'd say I don't agree with everything he said in that article, I'd say his assessment is more accurate than anything we've gotten from an Angel over the past 3 years. 

 

Even Trumbo last-night stumbled a bit last night during the post game interview when he almost muttered "not playing good baseball," he kinda backtracked and was thinking what he was supposed to say. The guys on this team aren't allowed be straight forward and honest about what's happening on the field, they sugar coat the negatives and it's getting old. 

 

Go back earlier in this thread.  A certain somebody said he agreed with everything Haren said a mere 7 minutes after the link was posted here.  How that is possible I have no clue because Haren's comments could be construed different ways.

 

I agree with your comments.  The players should be able to speak their minds.

[tomsred]

One other thing I would add that was handled poorly by the organization - marketing.  They pushed hard this offseason in marketing the skills of the key players acquired.  They fueled the expectation level for performance to an unachievable level, probably because it would help sell tickets and merchandise.  I would have cautioned fans to temper their enthusiasm because it would take some time to integrate the new players, and make the adjustments that were necessary to win consistently.  I don't believe the Angels marketing department, and the baseball operations communicate very well.  They might not have an effective leader over both organizations that effectively integrates them.

[Lifetime]

Don't dance around it, if you're referring to me, come out and say it.

How long does it take to discern what Haren was saying, I mean really? Should I read it several times, dice it up, apply bias, assume there is a hidden meaning and then form an opinion? Let's say I do all of that, how long will that take?

[Tyler]

Right or wrong, no one here actually expects anything else but revisionist history on a fan site...

 

Pujols was touted as the greatest acquisition since the Louisiana purchase.

 

Now it's more toxic than Lohan's crotch.

 

Yikes.

 

Jerry, is that you?

[Eric]

One other thing I would add that was handled poorly by the organization - marketing.  They pushed hard this offseason in marketing the skills of the key players acquired.  They fueled the expectation level for performance to an unachievable level, probably because it would help sell tickets and merchandise.  I would have cautioned fans to temper their enthusiasm because it would take some time to integrate the new players, and make the adjustments that were necessary to win consistently.  I don't believe the Angels marketing department, and the baseball operations communicate very well.  They might not have an effective leader over both organizations that effectively integrates them.

And TomsRed pulls this thread back from the brink.

Awesomer Thread just got even more Awesomer!

[Tyler]

PS I read the article and posted two responses in 4 minutes total from when it was posted.  #superreader

[tomsred]

Go back earlier in this thread.  A certain somebody said he agreed with everything Haren said a mere 7 minutes after the link was posted here.  How that is possible I have no clue because Haren's comments could be construed different ways.

 

I agree with your comments.  The players should be able to speak their minds.

I disagree, you don't let everyone represent the organization with public comments because they are unskilled public speakers, and what they say can be interpreted in various ways.  Think of some of the comments made by Hunter in previous years, and how unsettling and misconstrued they were.  Yes, it's our right to have free speech in this country.  When you wear a uniform of an organization, or you are an employee of an organization, what you say reflects on everyone in the organization.  How well you say it, and to some degree what you say, can be construed to represent the opinion of the organization.  That does not fly in public companies, that takes some skill and is a specialty.

 

Now as a fan you would probably like to hear every players opinion on team performance, but many fans would take those opinions as fact and as representative of the entire organization, and make conclusions from those supposed "facts.".  That is why an individual like Tim Mead exists.  That's why baseball is full of cliches that are not seen as detrimental to the organization they represent.  If you allowed everyone to be a public relations representative, you would be toast in the community and as an effective organization.

[rageous]

I agree.

Haren + Santana + Torii + Greinke + Morales > Hamilton + Blanton + Hanson + Vargas + Madson

[mp170.6]

My answer to some of your questions is as follows:

 

1. I pretty much agree with you, chemistry is over emphasized and tends to show well when your winning.

 

2. I think he was implying that the team had learned to jell well together as a team, and there was no need to make the amount of changes that were made in total.

 

3. I think he meant that leaders have to develop over a period of months.  Managers, coaches and player leadership qualities are quite different.  A manager makes hard decisions regarding who plays, who sits, many in game decisions, bating orders, etc., and must be in a position to reprimand and encourage a player as necessary.  He shouldn't have to justify every decision he makes, and must be isolated somewhat from the players.  The coaches fill an intermediate role, they can be closer to the players, sometimes consoling and encouraging them.  Player leaders come in all types, part of it is they have to lead by example to some degree to have a much credibility.  Some can be poor performers and be leaders, but I believe that is rare.

 

4. No one is saying that the manager and coaching staff have done an outstanding job this year.  I would think their performance is under review mostly by DiPoto, and somewhat by Moreno.  Not every player is playing poorly compared to their norm.  Unfortunately this team has little depth, and the highest paid players on the team are under performing for various reasons.  A few are injured, and there is no depth to step up and fill the void created by these injuries.

 

Making changes to a baseball team, employees in a company, or almost any situation where team performance is required to succeed will many times set the entire team back a few steps until they learn to work with one another, not always but many times it will.  I believe this wasn't taken into account by either Arte or DiPoto.  I still believe this team will come together and win somewhat consistently, but not until some of the players come back from injury, it's just not a deep enough team.  I've said this in previous years, you need between 40-50 effective players to win a championship.  That's how many different players the Angels run out at the Major League level each year.  Unfortunately our numbers 25-50 on the depth chart are very poor right now compared to other clubs.

 

I think chemistry matters most in two areas:  Between the pitchers and the catchers, and between all of the infielders (and, to a lesser extent the outfielders) because they work side by side on defense throughout the game.  Other than that, I don't think chemistry matters that much.  The dugouts, clubhouses, bullpens, and charter airplanes are large enough for players to join whichever clique they feel most comfortable in.

 

However long it takes for leaders to develop, doesn't it strike you as bizarre that no player on this team of 25 took cues from Hunter and is able to emulate him in some way?  I find that especially troubling with Pujols and Hamilton here.  I suppose Hamilton could grow into a leader over time, but why is Pujols seemingly a zero in this role?

 

As a group, I think the biggest failure of Moreno, Reagins, and Scioscia was not dealing with the catcher dilemma years ago.  This was during the era when Scioscia had too much power and wouldn't let Mathis slip away.  I think Conger would be much better today (and he isn't that bad) if the Angels hadn't bounced him around so much.  Our younger relievers have had a difficult enough job as is without the constant juggling of catchers the last few years.

[Angel Oracle]

It is after the fact, but I wonder if they should have kept one of the two (Haren or Santana) and ignored Blanton.

Some players do really well in contract years.

Then, if that is the case, you offer arb which that player would turn down if having an excellent season, and voila you have a strong 2013 performance AND potentially an extra early pick in the 2014 draft.

[Angel Oracle]

I just hope now that Brandon Sisk overcomes TJ surgery, and can eventually be a solid part of the pen for several seasons down the road.

[tomsred]

I think chemistry matters most in two areas:  Between the pitchers and the catchers, and between all of the infielders (and, to a lesser extent the outfielders) because they work side by side on defense throughout the game.  Other than that, I don't think chemistry matters that much.  The dugouts, clubhouses, bullpens, and charter airplanes are large enough for players to join whichever clique they feel most comfortable in.

 

However long it takes for leaders to develop, doesn't it strike you as bizarre that no player on this team of 25 took cues from Hunter and is able to emulate him in some way?  I find that especially troubling with Pujols and Hamilton here.  I suppose Hamilton could grow into a leader over time, but why is Pujols seemingly a zero in this role?

 

As a group, I think the biggest failure of Moreno, Reagins, and Scioscia was not dealing with the catcher dilemma years ago.  This was during the era when Scioscia had too much power and wouldn't let Mathis slip away.  I think Conger would be much better today (and he isn't that bad) if the Angels hadn't bounced him around so much.  Our younger relievers have had a difficult enough job as is without the constant juggling of catchers the last few years.

Hunter had a rare personality, I'm not sure anyone on this team could emulate him.  Eventually Trumbo and Trout could be leaders, but that might take a few years.

 

I agree with you on the catching, not enough emphasis there, but really good catchers that were available via trade or free agency have been rare the past few years.  I think DiPoto missed the boat on the pen construction.  He tried to build a house with a hand saw instead of an electric saw.  Maybe Madsen will bail him out, but I don't expect that he will contribute much right away.

[EDinTUSTIN]

Dan Haren > Jerry DiPoto.  Jerry can't comment because Dan will say "scoreboard baby."  LOL

I think he is confusing his voice with that of the opposition he is pitching to according to his stats so far this season. The fact is, he never carried the team to postseason while he was here. They didn't play well enough after April to make postseason, so that is a moot point. In fact they had a horrendous late August and September, not to mention blowing their change at the 2nd wildcard the last two weeks of the season.

[gurn67]

I've always felt that Scioscia stayed with Mathis so long because he's the one who convinced the front office that Mathis was ready to be a starting catcher in 2006. After the 2005 season, the Angels could have offered Molina arbitration and it would have been a win/win situation. If he accepted, they would have had one of the best all-around catchers in the game coming back and Mathis would have received another year of seasoning in AAA or as the backup. If he signed elsewhere, they would have received compensation for a Type A free agent. 2006 would have been an even bigger disappointment if a certain AA catcher who wasn't even on the team's radar hadn't come up and produced a .815 OPS vs. Mathis' .145 BA.

[mp170.6]

I disagree, you don't let everyone represent the organization with public comments because they are unskilled public speakers, and what they say can be interpreted in various ways.  Think of some of the comments made by Hunter in previous years, and how unsettling and misconstrued they were.  Yes, it's our right to have free speech in this country.  When you wear a uniform of an organization, or you are an employee of an organization, what you say reflects on everyone in the organization.  How well you say it, and to some degree what you say, can be construed to represent the opinion of the organization.  That does not fly in public companies, that takes some skill and is a specialty.

 

Now as a fan you would probably like to hear every players opinion on team performance, but many fans would take those opinions as fact and as representative of the entire organization, and make conclusions from those supposed "facts.".  That is why an individual like Tim Mead exists.  That's why baseball is full of cliches that are not seen as detrimental to the organization they represent.  If you allowed everyone to be a public relations representative, you would be toast in the community and as an effective organization.

 

I think you're lumping two problems into one.  Public relations is not the players' problem.  As long as they aren't pointing the finger at others or threatening people, I don't think the players care what their teammates say to the media.  

 

The Angels appear to bottle their emotions pretty tightly and it's not healthy.  The players aren't stupid, they know their frustrations are visible to the public.  Yet, for whatever reason, the Angels brass forbids them from being human by acknowledging what we already know. 

 

The team is not hurt one bit when a player acknowledges tough times in a diplomatic way. 

[HaloNation]

I agree.

Haren + Santana + Torii + Greinke + Morales > Hamilton + Blanton + Hanson + Vargas + Madson

 

 

-greinke 

-pujols 

+fielder

+segura

[Angel Oracle]

I wonder if Fielder would have been enough to get the new tv contract done.

Almost every October team has a devastating lefty hitter. Fielder instead of Pujols and Hamilton would have left this team with the cash to get a good pitcher like Anabal Sanchez.

Weaver, Wilson, Sanchez, Vargas, and Richards would have potentially been a nice rotation. Richards in the 5th spot could then have less pressure on him.

[mp170.6]

Hunter had a rare personality, I'm not sure anyone on this team could emulate him.  Eventually Trumbo and Trout could be leaders, but that might take a few years.

 

I agree with you on the catching, not enough emphasis there, but really good catchers that were available via trade or free agency have been rare the past few years.  I think DiPoto missed the boat on the pen construction.  He tried to build a house with a hand saw instead of an electric saw.  Maybe Madsen will bail him out, but I don't expect that he will contribute much right away.

 

Do you mean Hunter's infectious smile? 

 

I will say this regarding team chemistry and leadership.  There are times over the past decade I've thought the language barrier has been a hinderance to the team.  We've had a lot of Latin players who couldn't speak English well, if at all. 

 

Remember when Vlad arrived in 2004?  After that was when the cliques started forming based on ethnic backgrounds because Vlad couldn't communicate with the white guys very well.

[Docwaukee]

Good stuff from Haren.  Not sure things would be much different with him on the team.  In fact, if we kept him we may have him, blanton, wilson, weaver on the dl, and probably hanson on the restricted list.