More Thoughts & Prayers

[floplag]

2 hours ago, UndertheHalo said:

 

So are you suggesting that one has nothing to do with the other?  Casue it would be very easy to debunk with the simple suggestion that anyone that decides to kill a bunch of strangers by any means is by definition mentally unstable. 
This is one of the real root causes no one wants to talk about... You wanna know why this is happening more in the last decade or so?  the answer is kinda simple and extremely non political. 
Mental issues are going ignored to avoid stigmatizing or limiting the growth of those affected... they are not getting identified or treated, they are not even being considered sick to avoid hurting their feelings.   
The end results, a lot of people with far worse hurt every time one of them acts out.  
Classic example of cant have it both ways. 

[UndertheHalo]

3 minutes ago, floplag said:

So are you suggesting that one has nothing to do with the other?  Casue it would be very easy to debunk with the simple suggestion that anyone that decides to kill a bunch of strangers by any means is by definition mentally unstable. 
This is one of the real root causes no one wants to talk about... You wanna know why this is happening more in the last decade or so?  the answer is kinda simple and extremely non political. 
Mental issues are going ignored to avoid stigmatizing or limiting the growth of those affected... they are not getting identified or treated, they are not even being considered sick to avoid hurting their feelings.   
The end results, a lot of people with far worse hurt every time one of them acts out.  
Classic example of cant have it both ways. 

 

I posted the link to an article that you appear to have not read.  If you’re trying to say that I’m suggesting that mental health doesn’t have a part in this you are wrong. I haven’t said anything remotely close to that.  And actually neither does the author of the article.  

[floplag]

15 minutes ago, UndertheHalo said:

 

I posted the link to an article that you appear to have not read.  If you’re trying to say that I’m suggesting that mental health doesn’t have a part in this you are wrong. I haven’t said anything remotely close to that.  And actually neither does the author of the article.  

What part of it do you assume i didnt read?

The title itself makes his point.   
He goes on to say things like "First, it smears people who do have mental disorders."  Gee, sorry, is that more important than dead children?  Isnt wanting to kill a bunch of people by definition a mental disorder?  It doesnt smear people with bi-polar or whatever else they are not the same damn thing.  its nonsense to even suggest the comparison unless your sole agenda is guns.  Mental disorder is such a blanket term it covers everything from mass murderers to strippers with daddy issues, using the term to describe one doesnt affect the other. 
Further his apparent primary thought, was "Second, turning immediately to the “sickness” of the shooter and piously calling for better mental-health care is, more often than not, an attempt to divert attention from the main issue: guns."  This is a point i vehemently disagree with as a person who has spent his professional career using various troubleshooting methodologies.   It is the exact equivalent of blaming the car for a drunk drivers killing, it truly is.  We stop those cases  by trying to prevent people from getting behind the wheel or detecting them as they drive before someone gets hurt, we failed in that example in this case as there was so many red flags that went ignored or unprocessed for whatever reasons 

His view is very clear, and is i assume yours by linking it.  And in my opinion its completely wrong and illogical.  You cannot solve any problem looking at the result, you solve it by looking at the cause, something he completely ignores and dismisses in favor of his opinion.  Pointing the finger at guns while ignoring the reason the person picked up that gun is ostrich syndrome at its bitter worst.   You must look at the whole of the problem, not just one piece of it.  

There is a reason this man picked up a gun, THAT is the cause, which by definition should be the main issue, not what happened in the end.   The only way this was ever going to be stopped was to help him and change him before he made the decision to kill.  Once that was made, the rest was inevitable.  

[Spirit]

On 2/14/2018 at 3:06 PM, Taylor said:

But cars!

 

Indeed!  Being burned alive no less.

The family looks forward to your Ts & Ps.

http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/killed-four-vehicle-crash-long-island-article-1.3820805

 

 

[UndertheHalo]

17 hours ago, floplag said:

What part of it do you assume i didnt read?

The title itself makes his point.   
He goes on to say things like "First, it smears people who do have mental disorders."  Gee, sorry, is that more important than dead children?  Isnt wanting to kill a bunch of people by definition a mental disorder?  It doesnt smear people with bi-polar or whatever else they are not the same damn thing.  its nonsense to even suggest the comparison unless your sole agenda is guns.  Mental disorder is such a blanket term it covers everything from mass murderers to strippers with daddy issues, using the term to describe one doesnt affect the other. 
Further his apparent primary thought, was "Second, turning immediately to the “sickness” of the shooter and piously calling for better mental-health care is, more often than not, an attempt to divert attention from the main issue: guns."  This is a point i vehemently disagree with as a person who has spent his professional career using various troubleshooting methodologies.   It is the exact equivalent of blaming the car for a drunk drivers killing, it truly is.  We stop those cases  by trying to prevent people from getting behind the wheel or detecting them as they drive before someone gets hurt, we failed in that example in this case as there was so many red flags that went ignored or unprocessed for whatever reasons 

His view is very clear, and is i assume yours by linking it.  And in my opinion its completely wrong and illogical.  You cannot solve any problem looking at the result, you solve it by looking at the cause, something he completely ignores and dismisses in favor of his opinion.  Pointing the finger at guns while ignoring the reason the person picked up that gun is ostrich syndrome at its bitter worst.   You must look at the whole of the problem, not just one piece of it.  

There is a reason this man picked up a gun, THAT is the cause, which by definition should be the main issue, not what happened in the end.   The only way this was ever going to be stopped was to help him and change him before he made the decision to kill.  Once that was made, the rest was inevitable.  

I do agree with every single thing Zakaria said. 

I believe that you are wrong completely and utterly. I just deleted a point by point response to you.  I deleted it because it’s a ridiculous waste of time.  It took me 30 mins to figure that out.  My bad.   We’re two immovable objects here.  So I’m going to spare both of us the rise in blood pressure.  I know where you stand on this. 

also, i don't know if you recall.  but I do.  back in November (i looked it up) you and i were arguing about restrictions for mentally ill people.  You seem to have had a change of heart.  Are you OK with stopping mentally ill people from having guns now ?

Edited February 16, 2018 by UndertheHalo

[Jason]

https://steemit.com/news/@emmafiala/mass-shootings-are-a-symptom-of-a-problem-that-gun-control-won-t-solve

[tennischmp]

15 hours ago, floplag said:

What part of it do you assume i didnt read?

The title itself makes his point.   
He goes on to say things like "First, it smears people who do have mental disorders."  Gee, sorry, is that more important than dead children?  Isnt wanting to kill a bunch of people by definition a mental disorder?  It doesnt smear people with bi-polar or whatever else they are not the same damn thing.  its nonsense to even suggest the comparison unless your sole agenda is guns.  Mental disorder is such a blanket term it covers everything from mass murderers to strippers with daddy issues, using the term to describe one doesnt affect the other. 
Further his apparent primary thought, was "Second, turning immediately to the “sickness” of the shooter and piously calling for better mental-health care is, more often than not, an attempt to divert attention from the main issue: guns."  This is a point i vehemently disagree with as a person who has spent his professional career using various troubleshooting methodologies.   It is the exact equivalent of blaming the car for a drunk drivers killing, it truly is.  We stop those cases  by trying to prevent people from getting behind the wheel or detecting them as they drive before someone gets hurt, we failed in that example in this case as there was so many red flags that went ignored or unprocessed for whatever reasons 

His view is very clear, and is i assume yours by linking it.  And in my opinion its completely wrong and illogical.  You cannot solve any problem looking at the result, you solve it by looking at the cause, something he completely ignores and dismisses in favor of his opinion.  Pointing the finger at guns while ignoring the reason the person picked up that gun is ostrich syndrome at its bitter worst.   You must look at the whole of the problem, not just one piece of it.  

There is a reason this man picked up a gun, THAT is the cause, which by definition should be the main issue, not what happened in the end.   The only way this was ever going to be stopped was to help him and change him before he made the decision to kill.  Once that was made, the rest was inevitable.  

You think it's so easy, what just snap you fingers and he is helped and crisis avoided? Problem is that it's not at all that easy. If you really think that stopping drunk drivers is as easy as stopping mental illness then you are very misinformed about how hard it really is to treat those with mental illness. And the fact that you compare stopping drunk drivers to stopping mental illness just confirms that. 

[RallyMo]

14 hours ago, floplag said:

There is a reason this man picked up a gun, THAT is the cause, which by definition should be the main issue, not what happened in the end.   The only way this was ever going to be stopped was to help him and change him before he made the decision to kill.  Once that was made, the rest was inevitable.  

One of the most inescapable reasons that the man picked up the gun was this one: it was available to him and was by far the most efficient, concealable and unstoppable way for him to achieve his goal. None of this is influenced by whatever his mental state happened to be.

[RallyMo]

6 hours ago, Jason said:

https://steemit.com/news/@emmafiala/mass-shootings-are-a-symptom-of-a-problem-that-gun-control-won-t-solve

No shit, but that doesn't mean gun control won't help stop instances like the one we'll all stop talking about in three days or so.

Also, it's pretty shocking to see you endorse what is essentially a SJW post. Bookmarked.

[nate]

The data I posted earlier showed that violent crime in the US is at the same rate as other developed countries, the death rate in the US is through the roof compared.  One reason: guns.

Anyway, they are saying this guy is severely mentally ill, of course Trump is responsible for signing a bill to make it so mentally ill people can purchase guns.

Also, always a good sign that someone is mentally ill when they post a picture wearing a MAGA hat.

[Glen]

Details about the "18 school shootings" you keep hearing about, in the interest of accuracy:

http://www.itv.com/news/2018-02-15/18-school-shootings-in-usa-in-2018/

[Jason]

37 minutes ago, RallyMo said:

No shit, but that doesn't mean gun control won't help stop instances like the one we'll all stop talking about in three days or so.

Also, it's pretty shocking to see you endorse what is essentially a SJW post. Bookmarked.

She raises some good points. I can agree with various points of view  

[Jason]

39 minutes ago, RallyMo said:

No shit, but that doesn't mean gun control won't help stop instances like the one we'll all stop talking about in three days or so.

Also, it's pretty shocking to see you endorse what is essentially a SJW post. Bookmarked.

Just curious on what the additional gun control measures you would personally like to see.

[Kevin]

9 minutes ago, Jason said:

Just curious on what the additional gun control measures you would personally like to see.

For one, high capacity magazines (I would say no more than 10 rounds) need to be done away with. Thirty rounds is ridiculous. 

 

Again it is naive to think mass shootings will stop. We allowed these types of weapons to be available for far too long so we have to reap the consequences. But let's at least try to correct our mistakes from the past moving forward into the future.  

[Jason]

2 minutes ago, Kevin said:

For one, high capacity magazines (I would say no more than 10 rounds) need to be done away with. Thirty rounds is ridiculous. 

 

Again it is naive to think mass shootings will stop. We allowed these types of weapons to be available for far too long so we have to reap the consequences. But let's at least try to correct our mistakes from the past moving forward into the future.  

It’s that way in California and the magazine capacity doesn’t really bother me. I say fix our broken background check system and give mandatory sentences for people that use firearms when committing crime. The responsible gun owners are not the problem so the idiots should be held accountable. As of now, they are not. Take a look at Project Exile. That worked but was considered racist or something.

[Kevin]

12 minutes ago, Jason said:

It’s that way in California and the magazine capacity doesn’t really bother me. I say fix our broken background check system and give mandatory sentences for people that use firearms when committing crime. The responsible gun owners are not the problem so the idiots should be held accountable. As of now, they are not. Take a look at Project Exile. That worked but was considered racist or something.

 

 

Why not do both? Is it the end of the world if you have to fix a broken background check system and you can only have magazine capacities of 10 rounds?

Also you're the local gun expert here so I value your opinion. Is this article from June of 2017 outdated? 

http://www.sacbee.com/news/state/california/article158150224.html

Is not turning in your illegal magazine (or at least disposing of it) being a law abiding citizen? 

[Jason]

28 minutes ago, Kevin said:

 

 

Why not do both? Is it the end of the world if you have to fix a broken background check system and you can only have magazine capacities of 10 rounds?

Also you're the local gun expert here so I value your opinion. Is this article from June of 2017 outdated? 

http://www.sacbee.com/news/state/california/article158150224.html

Is not turning in your illegal magazine (or at least disposing of it) being a law abiding citizen? 

A Federal judge, rightfully so, blocked it. It's not OK for the state to seize legally obtained property. Imagine doing that for something other than a weapon. High cap magazines have been unlawful to buy, sell or transport in California since the late 90's. It's fine to do both

[red321]

Hopefully all those thoughts and prayers sent to Parkland formed a big force field...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/grade-point/wp/2018/02/16/police-responding-to-reports-of-gunfire-on-highline-college-campus-in-washington/?hpid=hp_hp-more-top-stories_highline-1230p%3Ahomepage%2Fstory&utm_term=.dc0215e90b07

Reports of gunfire at college campus in Washington

[Spirit]

We’ve had guns like the AK available for, what... 50-60 years?  It’s odd to me that the number of mass shootings is something that is a relatively new thing. Pretty much since columbine.  And that we continue to see an increase in them year over year.  

Now, I’ve been clear that I think all guns should be banned.  But there’s something else going on.  I’ve heard little to no discussion about what’s driving this.  It’s not just guns.   

 

 

 

[UndertheHalo]

12 minutes ago, Geoff said:

We’ve had guns like the AK available for, what... 50-60 years?  It’s odd to me that the number of mass shootings is something that is a relatively new thing. Pretty much since columbine.  And that we continue to see an increase in them year over year.  

Now, I’ve been clear that I think all guns should be banned.  But there’s something else going on.  I’ve heard little to no discussion about what’s driving this.  It’s not just guns.   

 

 

 

I think we live in an echo chamber and the mass shooting has become an option on the psycho menu. 

Also, our world is continually more and more complex.  More and more people have issues navigating it.  We don’t have the accessible resources necessary to help people figure it out.  We also don’t have the necessary resources to intervene before someone goes over the edge. 

[Adam]

I think we live in a society where too many human beings are raised in parentless homes, grow up feeling unloved, unvalued and worthless. 

[UndertheHalo]

Not that those aren’t issues.  But for most of human history people have grown up unvalued and worthless.  Definitely in homes that we wouldn’t consider ideal. 

[Thomas]

1 minute ago, Adam said:

I think we live in a society where too many human beings are raised in parentless homes, grow up feeling unloved, unvalued and worthless. 

While seeing a skewed reality of how much better their peers have it. I thought I had it bad as a kid but it doesn't match what kids today have to go through. This generation is going to have some serious mental scars to deal with later on.

[nate]

12 minutes ago, Adam said:

I think we live in a society where too many human beings are raised in parentless homes, grow up feeling unloved, unvalued and worthless. 

Maybe, but this has nothing to do with our murder rate.

Again, the violent crime rate is the same here as it is in other developed countries.

[Adam]

11 minutes ago, UndertheHalo said:

Not that those aren’t issues.  But for most of human history people have grown up unvalued and worthless.  Definitely in homes that we wouldn’t consider ideal. 

Not with social media and in a culture that celebrates gratuitous violence