Scioscia on protesting during the anthem

[floplag]

i have mixed emotions and strong feelings here...

I fully support the right of people to peacefully protest for whatever reason they wish to do so...BUT, i also feel there is a time and place for it.  I do not go to the movies, watch television, sporting events or any other such entertainment related venues for such things, and do not feel this is the appropriate place for a political statement.

Raising awareness is a copout in my opinion.   I'm pretty sure none of us need to be told about racism.  I grew up in south central till i was 12, i'm very much aware of its existence. 

I absolutely feel these men are somewhat hypocritical in that they are not and never have been oppressed.  Since they could pick up that ball they have been pampered and treated like gods, i find it somewhat disingenuous and difficult to take seriously.  Karpernick who started all this perhaps the most so considering his personal history.  Being called a racial slur or other similar insult is not oppression, by that standard literally every one of us is oppressed. 

I do believe the current events are 100% anti-Trump more than any other agenda.   This began under Obama and it wasnt till Trump opened his pie whole that it suddenly went viral so to speak, the timing is questionable in this case.   Trump at this point could post and say that the sky is blue, and people would find fault in it simply because he said it.  

I think its a smokescreen.  The issue clearly isnt with the nation, but a subset of it.  At least be honest about it. 

I do find it disrespectful to our history, our military that gave them this right to say such things, and those who have fought and died for it.    To me this is a slap in the faces of those who died to give them this right to piss on the nation as  a whole. 

At the end of it all, they have the right to think how they wish, as do i, as do all reading this... and part of that is the right to disagree without being labeled and dismissed.   If you truly believe in free speech and expression it must begin with those you disagree with.  You must stand up for opposing views even stronger than your own, or you dont truly believe in the rights at all and are merely hiding behind them.  

[Angel Oracle]

All I know is, Trump is acting very unpresidential like.   It's one thing to try to change a corrupt Congress.   It's quite another to makes tweets that an immature teen or adult would likely make, while acting as president.

[stormngt]

6 hours ago, HALOS23 said:

That flag represents freedom. 

and part of that freedom is the freedom to protest against that flag

[Mark68]

^This

[HALOS23]

3 hours ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

A symbol is never more important than the thing it symbolizes. 

Would a secret service agent jump in front of the bullet if someone shot a picture of the president?

That's what I think when someone says "people died for that flag."

You are free to think that way.  

Seeing your father's coffin draped with that flag may make you feel different. 

Also, people are free to protest the flag. Never said they couldn't. Do I feel it is disrespectful to Veterans? Yes. Is that everyone's opinion? No. And thats okay too. 

[Jeff Fletcher]

I would disagree strongly with the earlier statement that professional athletes haven't felt racism. Didn't a Seahawks player just get beaten up by the police in Las Vegas?

It may not be the same level of racism, because they have money and celebrity to avoid many things, but there is still racism. 

Besides, shouldn't they be standing up for what they believe is right, whether or not it's directly affected them?

[Jeff Fletcher]

1 hour ago, HALOS23 said:

You are free to think that way.  

Seeing your father's coffin draped with that flag may make you feel different. 

Also, people are free to protest the flag. Never said they couldn't. Do I feel it is disrespectful to Veterans? Yes. Is that everyone's opinion? No. And thats okay too. 

By the same token, someone who has seen people in other countries lose their rights and be punished simply for their statements or speech might also feel differently. 

We can agree to disagree. 

[floplag]

1 hour ago, stormngt said:

and part of that freedom is the freedom to protest against that flag

and the right to be offended when someone does, it isnt like it ends at one persons protest. 

[floplag]

7 minutes ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

I would disagree strongly with the earlier statement that professional athletes haven't felt racism. Didn't a Seahawks player just get beaten up by the police in Las Vegas?

It may not be the same level of racism, because they have money and celebrity to avoid many things, but there is still racism. 

Besides, shouldn't they be standing up for what they believe is right, whether or not it's directly affected them?

There is a difference between racism, and oppression.  i would wager literally everyone reading this has at some point been called a racial slur, i know i have... but that doesnt reach the definition of oppression.

I dont know what happened in Vegas, i wasnt there to know what the origins of the matter were, so i wont comment on that. 

I have no problem with athletes or celebs standing up for what they think is right, i have an issues with them doing it in my movies, tv, and games which are not political in nature and taking on an air of self righteous judgment on those who dont see things the same way.  As i said, time and place.  

[stormngt]

2 hours ago, floplag said:

and the right to be offended when someone does, it isnt like it ends at one persons protest. 

No argument from me.  I say the same thing all time.  "Free speech means you can say any dumb ass thing you want to say.  But it doesnt protect you from me thinking your a dumb ass"

[Jeff Fletcher]

2 hours ago, floplag said:

There is a difference between racism, and oppression.  i would wager literally everyone reading this has at some point been called a racial slur, i know i have... but that doesnt reach the definition of oppression.

I dont know what happened in Vegas, i wasnt there to know what the origins of the matter were, so i wont comment on that. 

I have no problem with athletes or celebs standing up for what they think is right, i have an issues with them doing it in my movies, tv, and games which are not political in nature and taking on an air of self righteous judgment on those who dont see things the same way.  As i said, time and place.  

I think you're playing a semantics game in splitting racism from oppression.

And I don't really feel doing something during the national anthem is really doing something "in the game" in such a way as to interrupt your enjoyment of the game. A lot of times it's not even on TV. And a lot of people at the ballpark are in the bathroom, getting food, whatever. Plus, it's not like they are stopping the anthem or preventing anyone else from observing it however they want.

[Lou]

9 hours ago, floplag said:

I absolutely feel these men are somewhat hypocritical in that they are not and never have been oppressed.  Since they could pick up that ball they have been pampered and treated like gods, i find it somewhat disingenuous and difficult to take seriously. 

You actually believe that every single athlete was pampered and treated like a god their entire life? None of them had to struggle growing up? A lot of athletes grew up in the inner cities in some of the worst areas of our country. Gangs, drugs, robberies, assaults, murders...

I'm grateful that I was never pampered that way. 

[Lou]

3 hours ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

And a lot of people at the ballpark are in the bathroom, getting food, whatever.

[nate]

1 hour ago, Lou said:

You actually believe that every single athlete was pampered and treated like a god their entire life? None of them had to struggle growing up? A lot of athletes grew up in the inner cities in some of the worst areas of our country. Gangs, drugs, robberies, assaults, murders...

I'm grateful that I was never pampered that way. 

They aren't all Trojans, after all.

Mad respect to @Jeff Fletcher for speaking out in this thread and sticking to his beliefs.  Not something you see all that much.

[arch stanton]

As someone who has served and now happily carries a US passport as I wander the earth, I’ll just make 2 comments. 

The flag does not represent freedom. It represents the government of the United States of America and thus whatever your particular interactions with that may entail. Definitely not one size fits all. 

For those who want to gloss over the reasons for the protest and concentrate on the methods, you may be doing more to prove their point than they are. The people from other cultures who I deal with everyday seem very impressed that they are allowed to do this and equally puzzled that they felt it was necessary 

[Lou]

54 minutes ago, arch stanton said:

The people from other cultures who I deal with everyday seem very impressed that they are allowed to do this and equally puzzled that they felt it was necessary

This sure brings a different perspective on things. 

Great post, arch. 

[Lou]

6 hours ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

A lot of times it's not even on TV.

Ok, folks, be honest. When the anthem is shown on tv (non-Olympics), how many of you actually:

1. Watch the entire thing 

2. Watch and stand up

3. Leave it on but don't really pay attention 

4. Go to the kitchen and/or bathroom

5. Change the channel 

???

put me down for #5

 

[Merlot]

9 hours ago, floplag said:

There is a difference between racism, and oppression.  i would wager literally everyone reading this has at some point been called a racial slur, i know i have... but that doesnt reach the definition of oppression.

I dont know what happened in Vegas, i wasnt there to know what the origins of the matter were, so i wont comment on that. 

I have no problem with athletes or celebs standing up for what they think is right, i have an issues with them doing it in my movies, tv, and games which are not political in nature and taking on an air of self righteous judgment on those who dont see things the same way.  As i said, time and place.  

How are those "your" anything?  Seriously, do you hear yourself?  Those people are free to do whatever they like as long as it doesn't effect me?  You kind of sound like an asshole.  Those aren't "your" movies or "your" tv shows or "your" games.  They are what they are and the people who make them are who they are, so if you don't like it, don't fucking watch it.  There is no middle ground here, the people choosing to protest have EVERY right to do it.  If you don't like it, take it up with the constitution or don't watch.  You know, just the same as the Nazi's a few weeks ago had every right and were "good people."

[well_red]

18 hours ago, floplag said:

I have no problem with athletes or celebs standing up for what they think is right, i have an issues with them doing it in my movies, tv, and games

Sure, they shouldn't do it when, you know, a bunch of white people are watching and might actually consider the racial divide in america.  why don't they just fuck off back to the ghetto on everyone's free time and stand on a street corner with a sign where people who care can see the protest, and let me stay in my cozy bubble where racism "officially ended" 50+ years ago?

[Angels#1Fan]

18 minutes ago, well_red said:

Sure, they shouldn't do it when, you know, a bunch of white people are watching and might actually consider the racial divide in america.  why don't they just fuck off back to the ghetto on everyone's free time and stand on a street corner with a sign where people who care can see the protest, and let me stay in my cozy bubble where racism "officially ended" 50+ years ago?

Hits nail on head.

[floplag]

17 hours ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

I think you're playing a semantics game in splitting racism from oppression.

And I don't really feel doing something during the national anthem is really doing something "in the game" in such a way as to interrupt your enjoyment of the game. A lot of times it's not even on TV. And a lot of people at the ballpark are in the bathroom, getting food, whatever. Plus, it's not like they are stopping the anthem or preventing anyone else from observing it however they want.

Well you are welcome to think that but i would respectfully disagree. 
Oppression takes many forms, not all have anything to do with race.  Racism doesn't imply oppression either, just stupidity.  
Whether its on the broadcast or not, it certainly getting more media attention than the games themselves at this point, literally impossible to avoid. 

[Stradling]

I think racism is all about oppression.  It is literally one group thinking they are superior to another group.  How is that not oppression?  

[floplag]

14 hours ago, Lou said:

You actually believe that every single athlete was pampered and treated like a god their entire life? None of them had to struggle growing up? A lot of athletes grew up in the inner cities in some of the worst areas of our country. Gangs, drugs, robberies, assaults, murders...

I'm grateful that I was never pampered that way. 

Of course there are legit stories of hardship... but the vast majority are not that.  Especially not from the time they were recognized as having skills.  
Kapernick, who started all this, was a giant hypocrite of monumental proportions if you rad his back story.   
And i dont need a lesson on that, i grew up in south central myself before moving to the OC so yeah, im very well aware of the things you suggest and was by age 10.  Please, dont presume to lecture me on that. 

[floplag]

11 hours ago, Merlot said:

How are those "your" anything?  Seriously, do you hear yourself?  Those people are free to do whatever they like as long as it doesn't effect me?  You kind of sound like an asshole.  Those aren't "your" movies or "your" tv shows or "your" games.  They are what they are and the people who make them are who they are, so if you don't like it, don't fucking watch it.  There is no middle ground here, the people choosing to protest have EVERY right to do it.  If you don't like it, take it up with the constitution or don't watch.  You know, just the same as the Nazi's a few weeks ago had every right and were "good people."

not what i said at all, and if thats all you got from it thats up to you.  But it tells me a lot that you went straight for the nazi line.  good luck with that 

[floplag]

1 hour ago, well_red said:

Sure, they shouldn't do it when, you know, a bunch of white people are watching and might actually consider the racial divide in america.  why don't they just fuck off back to the ghetto on everyone's free time and stand on a street corner with a sign where people who care can see the protest, and let me stay in my cozy bubble where racism "officially ended" 50+ years ago?

You really think people dont know?  That even one person sees all this and think "oh, i didnt know" ... really?