Scioscia on protesting during the anthem

[Chuck]

ABOUT THE ANTHEM

In the wake of Oakland A’s catcher Bruce Maxwell kneeling during the national anthem on Saturday, and numerous expressions throughout the NFL on Sunday, Scioscia said he would not have an issue if one of his players chose to make such a statement.

Scioscia said he planned to address the team before Sunday’s game to let them know the organization would support them. However, when the anthem was played, all of the Angels on the field were standing at attention.

“I think the national anthem has always been a time of just personal reflections,” Scioscia said. “Some guys say a prayer. Some guys are talking to their batterymate and and some guys are using it as a way to make some kind of statement. It’s a personal time. As an organization, we feel guys are free to use that personal time for whatever personal expression they might have.”

 

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[Chuck]

I think Sosh just gained a few extra points with me.

[Stradling]

9 minutes ago, Chuckster70 said:

I think Sosh just gained a few extra points with me.

Chuck that's weird that you would say that.  I completely agree by the way.  I guess I thought you had an issue with the protesting because of something I saw you post about Richard Sherman.  Sorry for thinking that.  

[Chuck]

5 minutes ago, Stradling said:

Chuck that's weird that you would say that.  I completely agree by the way.  I guess I thought you had an issue with the protesting because of something I saw you post about Richard Sherman.  Sorry for thinking that.  

No you pegged me right, Strad. I like that Sosh stands behinds his players beliefs, but that he wants them to stand during the anthem.

"Scioscia said he planned to address the team before Sunday’s game to let them know the organization would support them. However, when the anthem was played, all of the Angels on the field were standing at attention."

I'm actually disgusted with Pete Carroll and my Seahawks' stance on this for the record. 

[totdprods]

Agreed - what Sosh says is perfect. We are a melting pot nation of individual beliefs, values, religions, ethnicity, all with freedom of expression, speech, and religion.

Standing for the anthem with your hand over your heart doesn't make you a racist or insensitive to the plight of lesser. 
Kneeling and raising a fist and taking a stand for those less fortunate to show solidarity and raise awareness to their cause doesn't make you a disrespectful showoff.

I still can't believe this whole thing has become so inflammatory. Freedom of expression and speech is basically what this country was founded on, and it blows my mind that anyone would bat an eye at either action taken, regardless if you're kneeling, standing, jumping, hiding, eating, etc. As long as you aren't hurting someone, do what you want and no one else should have any reason to complain. Why in the world can't we get back to respecting that and compromising? Just being decent human beings who can understand each other even in disagreement and find a way to communicate a resolution that works?

Okay, coming off the soapbox.

[Chuck]

Furthermore, the flag and what it stands for has ZERO bearing on the black lives matter movement. 

Protest or drive awareness on another venue, not for a representation of those who lost their lives fighting for our freedom. 

Lastly, STOP politicizing sports. 

/End Rant

[totdprods]

1 minute ago, Chuckster70 said:

No you pegged me right, Strad. I like that Sosh stands behinds his players beliefs, but that he wants them to stand during the anthem.

"Scioscia said he planned to address the team before Sunday’s game to let them know the organization would support them. However, when the anthem was played, all of the Angels on the field were standing at attention."

I'm actually disgusted Pete Carroll and my Seahawks' stance on this for the record. 

I don't think the part that you have in bold means Scioscia held that influence over them. I think it was their choice, individually, or decided as a team collectively. 

I also just don't think this topic is entrenched in MLB yet. Is Maxwell the only MLBer to do so, so far?

[Chuck]

4 minutes ago, totdprods said:

I also just don't think this topic is entrenched in MLB yet. Is Maxwell the only MLBer to do so, so far?

I think he's the only one, tots.

[totdprods]

Just now, Chuckster70 said:

I think he the only one, tots.

For the most part, I think Sosh, and other players, managers, GMs, Tony Clark, etc. are just trying to get out ahead of it becoming a focal point should it become so in MLB as well. They're saying the right things and going on record ahead of time to address it now before it reaches a point where anything said is over-analyzed. But overall, I just don't think it's translating to MLB the same since it is such a predominantly white/Hispanic sport. For baseball, I think most teams would prefer to focus on either the playoffs or ending the season at this point, not making statements. 

Not that I feel they shouldn't feel able to do so, because they have every right to. I just don't think the pieces add up for this being a major focus in baseball right now.

[Second Base]

Whether they mean it or not, it's disrespectful to everyone who wore a uniform and fought for them.

I'm not saying protesting or making a statement is wrong. I'm saying that doing this during the national anthem is wrong place-wrong time. 

[fan_since79]

I think the Angels players should be more concerned about learning how to hit a baseball than what to do during the national anthem.

 

[Chuck]

2 minutes ago, Scotty@AW said:

Whether they mean it or not, it's disrespectful to everyone who wore a uniform and fought for them.

I'm not saying protesting or making a statement is wrong. I'm saying that doing this during the national anthem is wrong place-wrong time. 

Not everyone, @Scotty@AW. There are libs who served who don't mind this at all.  To each their own I guess. 

My point is, use a different venue to protest. I'm not against the right to protest, but the flag and the anthem, and what it stands for should not be that venue IMO. To me and for many others, who have served or who haven't, we find it disrespectful. 

[totdprods]

23 minutes ago, Scotty@AW said:

Whether they mean it or not, it's disrespectful to everyone who wore a uniform and fought for them.

I'm not saying protesting or making a statement is wrong. I'm saying that doing this during the national anthem is wrong place-wrong time. 

That's a very absolute statement though. Maxwell was born on a military base, son of an Army Vet. His dad has already stated that he's proud of what his son is doing. There are other vets and current members of the military that respect the decisions of Maxwell, Kaepernick, etc. as well. Because those vets and active members do not see it as a sign of disrespect, does it mean their opinions are wrong?

Someone can see kneeling during the anthem as a sign of disrespect, and in their eyes, they're 100% in the right to see that action and feel that way, but that does not mean it is an absolute sign of disrespect. But that doesn't mean they should feel deny someone from seeing that same action oppositely. (This is in no way directed at you, btw Scotty)

People need to learn that they live in the world they create, and we should accept that's as far as our views and opinions can and should go. We construct our reality and perceptions around us, and we cannot control those of others. We can influence another's views by how we treat them. We're not obligated to teach others what is right, wrong, disrespectful...just don't hurt anyone and respect the actions of others even if they differ from yours.

[yk9001]

1 hour ago, Chuckster70 said:

ABOUT THE ANTHEM

In the wake of Oakland A’s catcher Bruce Maxwell kneeling during the national anthem on Saturday, and numerous expressions throughout the NFL on Sunday, Scioscia said he would not have an issue if one of his players chose to make such a statement.

Scioscia said he planned to address the team before Sunday’s game to let them know the organization would support them. However, when the anthem was played, all of the Angels on the field were standing at attention.

“I think the national anthem has always been a time of just personal reflections,” Scioscia said. “Some guys say a prayer. Some guys are talking to their batterymate and and some guys are using it as a way to make some kind of statement. It’s a personal time. As an organization, we feel guys are free to use that personal time for whatever personal expression they might have.”

 

View the full article

Good for Sosh!

[krAbs]

So, not to get into the politics of this, but lets do a thought experiment: Lets assume that they are correct about what they are protesting about (basically, there are enough racist police that blacks see a different, more brutal side of law enforcement, and are often killed because of it, and therefore are justified in being terrified of the police even if they are totally innocent). What would be the CORRECT way to protest this? I'm assuming violent action is out, as is anything that disturbs traffic or the normal functioning of society. Protests at the anthem are out. Protests on the side of the road where no one is being disturbed are likely useless (I walk past some dudes holding up a sign about some labor dispute in a building every day, and I literally do not care at all about whatever issue they are talking about). So...IDK, what IS the right way to protest? Or is the wrong place/wrong time argument kinda code for having a problem with the idea of protesting in general?

[Chuck]

4 minutes ago, krAbs said:

So, not to get into the politics of this, but lets do a thought experiment: Lets assume that they are correct about what they are protesting about (basically, there are enough racist police that blacks see a different, more brutal side of law enforcement, and are often killed because of it, and therefore are justified in being terrified of the police even if they are totally innocent). What would be the CORRECT way to protest this? I'm assuming violent action is out, as is anything that disturbs traffic or the normal functioning of society. Protests at the anthem are out. Protests on the side of the road where no one is being disturbed are likely useless (I walk past some dudes holding up a sign about some labor dispute in a building every day, and I literally do not care at all about whatever issue they are talking about). So...IDK, what IS the right way to protest? Or is the wrong place/wrong time argument kinda code for having a problem with the idea of protesting in general?

They need to use a different venue for protesting this cause in my opinion. The flag and our anthem and what it stands for should not be disrespected in the manner it has. I support everyone's right to protest, but they should use their time off the clock to do so. The right to protest and their first amendment right should not be abused in such manner when the anthem is being played. Why not use a different venue to protest? Why not hit up the inner city and the police departments in an effort to end unjust police violence against blacks? There is more of a problem in the hood, where blacks kill other blacks at an alarming rate. How about these pampered star athletes get off their ass and gather a few cops with them to head into the worst crime infested areas around the United States in an effort to bring awareness, but more importantly, end racial profiling w/ cops against blacks? Mind you, this isn't just white cops killing black people unjustly, but also black cops killing other black people. Unite the people, don't divide. Show these people that not all cops are bad, but get in there and shake hands, put arms around each other and fix this problem at the core.

[Mark68]

58 minutes ago, Chuckster70 said:

Not everyone, @Scotty@AW. There are libs who served who don't mind this at all.  To each their own I guess. 

My point is, use a different venue to protest. I'm not against the right to protest, but the flag and the anthem, and what it stands for should not be that venue IMO. To me and for many others, who have served or who haven't, we find it disrespectful. 

I served.

And I support any American's right to protest in any non-violent way they deem necessary. To me, this is EXACTLY what veterans have fought, and died, for.

I certainly don't want to live in a conformist society. There are plenty of those types of societies now. Kim Jong Un leads one.

NFL teams weren't even on the field during the anthem prior to 2009, so it's not like protestors are breaking some time-honored tradition here.

 

[Chuck]

Just now, Mark68 said:

I served.

And I support any American's right to protest in any non-violent way they deem necessary. To me, this is EXACTLY what veterans have fought, and died, for.

I agree, but this protest divides people and politicizes sports, it is not going to help IMO. This only cause further issues. 

Come up with an action plan that will actually help this issue, rather than draw attention to themselves. 

I'm waiting for one person to show me how these NFL players' protesting the anthem is helping their cause. It's bringing negative awareness, not positive. See my idea above and let me know what you think @Mark68

[TheHeathen]

2 hours ago, Chuckster70 said:

Lastly, STOP politicizing sports. 

So the anthem should stop being played before games then?

[totdprods]

3 minutes ago, Chuckster70 said:

They need to use a different venue for protesting this cause in my opinion. The flag and our anthem and what it stands for should not be disrespected in the manner it has. I support everyone's right to protest, but they should use their time off the clock to do so. The right to protest and their first amendment right should not be abused in such manner when the anthem is being played. Why not use a different venue to protest? Why not hit up the inner city and the police departments in an effort to end unjust police violence against blacks? There is more of a problem in the hood, where blacks kill other blacks at an alarming rate. How about these pampered star athletes get off their ass and gather a few cops with them to head into the worst crime infested areas around the United States in an effort to bring awareness, but more importantly, end racial profiling w/ cops against blacks? Mind you, this isn't just white cops killing black people unjustly, but also black cops killing other black people. 

In a vacuum what you are suggesting is wonderful - but part of the appeal in this statement for an athlete is the visibility of it. If the grassroots approached for everything, everyone would do it. Look at the results they're getting - it's all over the news, social media, it's even garnered a thread on a team's message board in a sport that is barely showing any affects of it. On the 'other side' you have a president literally doing nothing more than stirring up the pot by responding in such an unconventional and unnecessary manner so it just snowballs the whole thing. Couple that with a frustrated populace looking for a reason to complain about anything and media more willing to feed that beast instead of focusing on integrity and the whole thing just goes to shit for no real reason other than sake of making it a debacle no one can turn away from.

[ettin]

1 hour ago, Chuckster70 said:

Furthermore, the flag and what it stands for has ZERO bearing on the black lives matter movement. 

Protest or drive awareness on another venue, not for a representation of those who lost their lives fighting for our freedom. 

Lastly, STOP politicizing sports. 

/End Rant

 

1 hour ago, Scotty@AW said:

Whether they mean it or not, it's disrespectful to everyone who wore a uniform and fought for them.

I'm not saying protesting or making a statement is wrong. I'm saying that doing this during the national anthem is wrong place-wrong time. 

The whole reason they are doing this is directly tied to the 3rd stanza of the National Anthem that no one ever hears because is is always the 1st stanza that is sung:

" And where is that band who so vauntingly swore,
That the havoc of war and the battle’s confusion
A home and a Country should leave us no more?
Their blood has wash’d out their foul footstep’s pollution.
No refuge could save the hireling and slave
From the terror of flight or the gloom of the grave,
And the star-spangled banner in triumph doth wave
O’er the land of the free and the home of the brave."

Key, who wrote the Star-Spangled Banner, had, just weeks before the Fort McHenry battle where he wrote the song, been defeated in battle by a group of black soldiers that had joined the British because the English had guaranteed their freedom. The third stanza above basically revels in those black soldiers (band who so vauntingly swore) deaths and that their blood  "wash'd out their foul footstep's pollution". This perhaps wouldn't be so bad except that Key himself believed in slavery. The only thing he wanted to do for slaves was show them some Christian kindness.

So in the end asking a black man or woman to respectfully sit through and listen to a song that was written by a man who believed in slavery and even wrote a section of the song that reveled in the death of black soldiers (even though they were fighting for the other side) is asking too much. This song has seeped into our traditions over the decades and has become so accepted that no one really questioned it.

In the realm of science we are always asking ourselves new questions and re-examining phenomena that we thought we knew but turns out we didn't really know as well as we thought. This is no different and taking the time to read and understand how this is offensive to black people should help everyone realize that that perhaps we never really progressed very far after the Revolutionary and Civil War's ended. The Confederate flag still flies. Monuments to the Confederate Southern leaders and ideologies still dot the landscape around the country. And bits and pieces of a very hateful time still exist in our texts and song lyrics. White supremacists walk openly on the streets of Charlottesville in 2017!!!! 

These athletes are U.S. citizens and have the right to express their 1st Amendment rights. Only until Kapernick took a knee did I realize there was actually four stanza's to the Star-Spangled Banner. I didn't realize only the 1st stanza is read during the National Anthem. When you go and look at it and understand the song's writer and the context in which it was written along with the history of the time it becomes more clear how a black person could, would, and should take offense to it. It also becomes clear that perhaps this (the song) is just one more vestige that should be removed from our vernacular. So many people are pushing back hard against this simply because of the long-steeped tradition of the song.

This country is based on liberty, freedom, and the pursuit of happiness. It is of the people, by the people, and for the people. All of them, including the one's that this country left behind and still continue to leave behind. We have fought significant wars to ensure that every U.S. citizen can freely express those Constitutional rights, including the 1st Amendment. They absolutely have a right to protest the song, that right was and continues to be earned.

Respectfully, - Robert

[Adam]

I'll never understand how someone doing something that violates no one's rights can be upsetting. 

[Angel Oracle]

There are two thought processes.

One is showing true respect for the flag and those sacrificing their lives and health to preserve it.

Another is that those who are choosing to make a statement during the anthem are upholding another big symbol of the flag, the freedom to express differing opinions as long as you don't advocate harming others.

[totdprods]

6 minutes ago, Chuckster70 said:

I agree, but this protest divides people and politicizes sports, it is not going to help IMO. This only cause further issues. 

Come up with an action plan that will actually help this issue, rather than draw attention to themselves. 

I'm waiting for one person to show me how these NFL players' protesting the anthem is helping their cause. It's bringing negative awareness, not positive. See my idea above and let me know what you think @Mark68

With all due respect Chuck..
What they are doing is bringing awareness to the subject - it is not up to them for their action to convince the person if they should direct negative or positive awareness to the problem. That's on you (not literally you) to decide how to take it. One person is not above another to dictate what another should believe is right or wrong.

So, do you just dismiss them? Agree with it? Think about it? Talk about it? Just because they're taking a knee and not doing what you're suggesting by going into the streets to mend relationships one on one doesn't meant there isn't something that needs resolving still.

[Mark68]

I'm sorry Chuck, but "using their time off the clock" is a cop-out. If you have an issue that you want to bring awareness to, what better venue than a stadium, in front of tens of thousands of people, in a televised event that millions of people are viewing?

Many of these people came out of the 'hood and saw sports as their ticket out. Many of them are giving back, too, through various charities and foundations, football camps, etc. But the most impact they can have on the overall view of the public is to stage a very public protest. It certainly is getting people talking about the issue.

And remember what prompted this latest round of protests: Trump calling players like Colin Kaepernick SOBs. That was uncalled for in a public forum, and certainly so for a sitting president. So perhaps a part of the protest is that they don't appreciate a member of their fraternity being called an SOB. It was pretty classless, IMHO.