Takeout "slides" at homeplate

[ukyah]

by the way rose didn't end fosse's career. he came back that year and hit 297. he also went on to play 11 more years.

 

many like to say that fosse was never the same after that separated shoulder, but they also fail to remember that 1970 was fosse's rookie year. so, it's not like they had any idea what he was likely to be anyway.

[angelduck]

The Pete Rose incident was particularly ridiculous because it was an ALL STAR GAME. No one is even trying, and he runs the guy over...pathetic move.

[stormngt]

WTF? The whole argument is that most of the time the catcher isn't even blocking the plate. A lot of the times the catcher is setting up for a swipe tag and the runner still chooses to run him over. It has nothing to do with woosification of America. No clue what you're talking about. It has to do with eliminating unnecessary injuries and keeping the game as safe as possible. As usual...you find a way to miss the point.

it makes no sense for a runner to run over a catcher who is off the base path trying for  a sweep tag.  That would force the player to take an extra step or two away from the plate.  If the goal is to score first and hurt someone second, why would someone run over a catcher who has protection when they could try to slide around the tag?  

[stormngt]

We'll probably just have to wait until someone dies on the field from blunt brain trauma. 

 

Reactive par for the boneheaded sports course, really. 

brain trauma?????isn't the catcher wearing a helmet?

[AZMike]

it makes no sense for a runner to run over a catcher who is off the base path trying for  a sweep tag.  That would force the player to take an extra step or two away from the plate.  If the goal is to score first and hurt someone second, why would someone run over a catcher who has protection when they could try to slide around the tag?  

By crashing into the catcher there's a good chance the catcher drops the ball and the runner can reach back and tag the base afterward, like what happened in the Erstad video. They may feel theri chances of knocking the ball out of the catcher's hand is better than avoiding the sweep tag. 

 

I personally think the NCAA rule listed makes the most sense -- call the runner out for interference if he goes out of the basepath to intentinoally knock the ball out of the catcher's hands.

[stormngt]

If you watch the Darin Erstad collisiin it's a chep play. He clearly had half the plate to slide for and would've been safe, but he chose to be a dick

So let me get this straight.  Erstad had half of the plate to slide safely and ensure a run.  Instead he was a dick, took an extra step toward the catcher, hit him full speed despite the catcher wearing protective gear and Erstad not wearing protective gear and risked being thrown out all because  Erstad wanted to run into the catcher.  Got it.

[stormngt]

The Pete Rose incident was particularly ridiculous because it was an ALL STAR GAME. No one is even trying, and he runs the guy over...pathetic move.

Obviously Pete Rose was trying to win.  That was one thing that made Rose great, he always competed to win.  I know some people do not understand that mentality, but  that is the mentality of a winner.

[angelduck]

Obviously Pete Rose was trying to win.  That was one thing that made Rose great, he always competed to win.  I know some people do not understand that mentality, but  that is the mentality of a winner.

 

It was an all star game

[stormngt]

By crashing into the catcher there's a good chance the catcher drops the ball and the runner can reach back and tag the base afterward, like what happened in the Erstad video. They may feel theri chances of knocking the ball out of the catcher's hand is better than avoiding the sweep tag. 

 

I personally think the NCAA rule listed makes the most sense -- call the runner out for interference if he goes out of the basepath to intentinoally knock the ball out of the catcher's hands.

I have no problem with calling the runner out if he leaves the base paths to collide with a catcher.  That would be consistent with the rules.  

[Broad Street]

Obviously Pete Rose was trying to win.  That was one thing that made Rose great, he always competed to win.  I know some people do not understand that mentality, but  that is the mentality of a winner.

 

It was an ALL STAR GAME. And back then All-Star Games didn't even matter, they didn't count for anything. 

[Inside Pitch]

It was an all star game

 

It was Charlie Hustle.....  

[CaliAngel]

brain trauma?????isn't the catcher wearing a helmet?

You can't be serious.

The catchers mask is meant to deflect baseballs, not protect the skull from collisions with 200 pound humans charging at them full force.

I will eventually figure out how to embed GIFs in the new forum but for now, scroll about 1/2 way down the page and see how much the mask helped Castro in his infamous collision.

http://www.chadmoriyama.com/2012/04/mlb-should-ban-home-plate-collisions-and-takeout-slides/

[Rochambeau]

I must admit, prior to this thread, I would have come down fairly surely in the 'no new rule' camp.  It's the way the game is played, the way I learned it.  Not to say that I have changed my mind, just that I am now undecided.  In the finest tradition of the internet message board and I mean that sincerely.

 

Something that I think might be missing from this discussion here are consideration of the dynamics of such a play.  Noone would sanely argue that blowing up a catcher for the mere joy of it is not wrong.  But, and the Erstad play is a perfect example perhaps, I seem to think that many collisions are the product of the runner having to decide what is about to happen, meaning that the catcher has not received the ball by the time the runner must decide to slide or to 'blow up' the catcher.  Properly done, the catcher catches the ball, then moves his body to block the plate.  The runner has to make his determination as to the approach he is going to take at (and this is me eyeballing it) about 15-20' from home plate.  In the time it takes for that whole 'decide/act upon it/execute the slide' process to occur a catcher can receive the ball and then drop like a wall in front of the plate.  If that ball arrives a moment sooner and Erstad goes into a headfirst dive, conceivably the catcher can drop in front of the plate and 'blow up' Erstad, if you will.

 

So, then the rule, if adopted would have to make it illegal to block the plate AND to intitiate contact to dislodge the ball.

 

Which also makes me wonder, why the double standard at home plate?  I have long wondered why 1st basemen don't drop a knee on close pickoff throws like Grich used to do?  Would definitely work.  The answer to that probably lies in the rulebook so perhaps someone more knowledgable on the subject could enlighten me.

 

Anyhow, that's all I have for now because I gotta get ready for work but I want to add that it is these types of issues that make forum participation most satisfying.

[Junkballer]

It was an ALL STAR GAME. And back then All-Star Games didn't even matter, they didn't count for anything. 

It was a different era and different mind-set.  They counted for pride.  Something some of today's players and a lot of younger fans wouldn't understand, thinking everything comes down to the dollar.

[Troll Daddy]

It was a different era and different mind-set.  They counted for pride.  Something some of today's players and a lot of younger fans wouldn't understand, thinking everything comes down to the dollar.

[Lou]

sosh took some pretty nasty knocks back in the day....im sure he has voiced an opinion on the topic...anyone know his thoughts?

" impossible to legislate"

" baseball already polices the guys that are just out to hurt a catcher "

" it's one of the tougher things about catching. If you want to catch, you can't pick and choose the parts you like and the parts you don't like. You've gotta take everything with it"

[Wallerrrr]

Well, if Sosh is good with it (especially considering the shots he took) then I'm good with it.

[Inside Pitch]

You can't be serious.

The catchers mask is meant to deflect baseballs, not protect the skull from collisions with 200 pound humans charging at them full force.

I will eventually figure out how to embed GIFs in the new forum but for now, scroll about 1/2 way down the page and see how much the mask helped Castro in his infamous collision.

http://www.chadmoriyama.com/2012/04/mlb-should-ban-home-plate-collisions-and-takeout-slides/

 

 

So should be go the other way too?  Should catchers be banned from blocking home plate given the numerous injuries suffered by base-runners at home?   Stephen Drew broke his leg going in low at the plate.  Ditto Ivan DeJesus Jr.  A few years back another highly touted prospect, Chris Marrero, broke his leg in a collision at home not long after being a first round draft pick.    

 

Not sure if you remember this but since some have brought up the meaningless All Star game with Pete Rose -- how about when Robin Ventura broke his leg and I think dislocated his ankle sliding into home during Spring Training at in the middle of his career?   Some people point to that injury as having really cut into his prime years, after 6 straight 800+ OPS seasons through age 29 he managed two the rest of his career.  

 

Do we just have umps wave runners in if it's close?  

 

Also, do people remember when Johnny Bench chimed in on the Posey injury after that entire controversy kicked in?  http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/06/04/johnny-bench-critiques-buster-poseys-positioning-at-home-plate/   Interesting comments from someone many feel was the greatest catcher of all time.   Bench BTW, once broke his leg sliding into second.   Need to give the base-runner a free pass there cause it's already hard enough to not catch a cleat on 2B when sliding..   Lets just wave them in if it's within 10 or so feet.  Can't have a guy get hurt.  

 

While we are at it -- Catchers shouldn't be allowed to throw to second base anymore either.  Casey Kotchman never seemed like the same player after getting clocked by a throw trying to steal second base off of Russell Martin.

[jshep]

Interestingly Mike Matheny has come out in favor of banning home plate collisions

 

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20130226&content_id=42009480&vkey=news_mlb&c_id=mlb

 

Matheny, who was a big league catcher for 13 seasons, explained on
Tuesday morning that he has come to believe baseball should and
eventually will ban home-plate collisions. It's a viewpoint to which
he's only recently come around.

A concussion ended Matheny's career, but Matheny said that was only a
small factor in his change of heart. More importantly, he has seen his
own children suffer concussions playing sports, and seen collisions from
a different vantage point now that he's managing instead of playing.

[Lou]

Well, if Sosh is good with it (especially considering the shots he took) then I'm good with it.

 

most men are

[Lou]

mlb should do away with outfield walls

 

a chalk line would suffice

[Lou]

 Let them carry on, and instead of arguing with them, laugh at them.

 

can't we do both?

[LBHalos17]

If there were no contact at the plate, the game would be called cricket...  The point of the game is to steal runs across the opposing teams' home plate, while they try to defend it.  MLB Umpires have discretion to call obstruction on the catcher or interference on the runner.

Most people in MLB believe in the status quo; these plays at the plate are an integral part of the game.  They are the most exciting plays in the game, and can decide the contests.

As long as the Umpires and MLB monitor the collisions, the play should remain the same.  Even in the Sunday beer league I play in now, legal contact is allowed...

[Justabitoutside]

" it's one of the tougher things about catching. If you want to catch, you can't pick and choose the parts you like and the parts you don't like. You've gotta take everything with it"

The catchers gear is called the "tools of ignorance" for a reason.