Dave Cameron is right on

[Angelsjunky]

This is from his chat today:

 

Comment From Nick:
What should the Angels do in the immediate future to help their situation? What they’re doing now (overpaying declining superstars) obviously isn’t working out. Is there any benefit to just starting over and resetting the team (trading guys with reasonable/short contracts like Aybar, Kendrick, Vargas, Hanson, Bourjos)?

 

Dave Cameron: How would trading the guys who provide value help anything? The problem with failing the way the Angels are failing is that there is nothing you can really do except wait. Hamilton and Pujols will start hitting better, but the commitments there are not ones you can be free of, so the Angels simply have no choice here.

 

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I completely agree with him here. You don't trade away the players that are doing well. The fire-sale doesn't need to happen (yet). Not to mention even though the Hamilton and Pujols contracts look awful now, they will play better. And even if they don't ever regain superstar status and "earn" their contracts, the Angels still have a larger payroll than, say, the Athletics AFTER their salaries (which is ridiculous). Hopefully Dipoto can channel some Billy Beane and work with what he'll have, because the next few years will be tight in terms of payroll flexibility.

[WallyWorld]

I disagree.  By dealing the tradeable assets (Trumbo, Bourjos, Kendrick, etc) they can start re-stocking the farm system and speed up the overall rebuilding process.  Holding on to those guys just in the hopes of being mediocre for the next few years is silly.

[Angel Oracle]

Better make sure the scouting is fortified beore doing whatever rebuild is necessary.

Too many acquisitions and early round draftees have not performed to expectations over the past several years. 

[nate]

Absolutely.

 

You don't trade your best young players for unproven younger players.

[thevisiontm]

The primary concern I would have if I was the Angels is the increasing age of the "star" players and an atrocious farm system.  Sometimes you have to trade your best young players to get back several above average young players that might have potential to be great.  The 3 or 4 above average young players on the Angels do not provide the kind of core you need to become a perennial threat every year.

 

I think it would be jumping the gun to fire sale, but I definitely think it is something the Angels will need to do if they hope to have a competitive future in this division.  The Rangers and Seattle have top 5 farm systems with Oakland being top 20.  The Angels being ranked last or nearly last doesn't bode well for the future especially when the "win-now" mentality has failed the team.

[Catwhoshatinthehat]

You re-stock the farm system with unproven players you hope can produce at the ML level in the next 2-3 years. Best case scenario they do but in the mean time you trade your exciting young players, the team salary doesn't really decrease and you are still counting on your high priced vets to produce.  Then in a few years if the guys you acquired produce they're still playing with those same high priced vets who are a few years older and even less likely to produce.  Why would you trade Trumbo and Bourjous hoping you can get players of their calibre in 2-3 years?  I don't see this being a fire sale yet and I'm not advocating trading anyone but if guys are moved it should be vets with club friendly contracts like Howie and Aybar. 

[thevisiontm]

@Cat - I don't see how the Angels could get much for either Howie or Aybar.  Certainly not enough to make any noticeable impact, because there is no real talent in the minors to fill in the gaps.

[rageous]

This is from his chat today:

 

Comment From Nick:

What should the Angels do in the immediate future to help their situation? What they’re doing now (overpaying declining superstars) obviously isn’t working out. Is there any benefit to just starting over and resetting the team (trading guys with reasonable/short contracts like Aybar, Kendrick, Vargas, Hanson, Bourjos)?

 

Dave Cameron: How would trading the guys who provide value help anything? The problem with failing the way the Angels are failing is that there is nothing you can really do except wait. Hamilton and Pujols will start hitting better, but the commitments there are not ones you can be free of, so the Angels simply have no choice here.

 

---------

 

I completely agree with him here. You don't trade away the players that are doing well. The fire-sale doesn't need to happen (yet). Not to mention even though the Hamilton and Pujols contracts look awful now, they will play better. And even if they don't ever regain superstar status and "earn" their contracts, the Angels still have a larger payroll than, say, the Athletics AFTER their salaries (which is ridiculous). Hopefully Dipoto can channel some Billy Beane and work with what he'll have, because the next few years will be tight in terms of payroll flexibility.

Tanking for the season worked well for the Red Sox but they were able to find a sucker in the Dodgers to offload many of their shitty contracts.

Unfortunately they won't find anyone to dump Pujols or Hamilton unless you ship Trout along with them.

And the Red Sox still has their number 7 draft pick coming up in the draft.

[Angel Oracle]

At this rate, we'll have a top 3 pick in 2014.

This smacks of a combination of the 1971, 1977, and 1980 seasons.

[fan_since79]

We'd be crazy to trade Trumbo. The kid could end up hitting 45-50 home runs this year. 

[kevinb]

I disagree.  By dealing the tradeable assets (Trumbo, Bourjos, Kendrick, etc) they can start re-stocking the farm system and speed up the overall rebuilding process.  Holding on to those guys just in the hopes of being mediocre for the next few years is silly.

 

 

I disagree.  By dealing the tradeable assets (Trumbo, Bourjos, Kendrick, etc) they can start re-stocking the farm system and speed up the overall rebuilding process.  Holding on to those guys just in the hopes of being mediocre for the next few years is silly.

You don't trade young guys for young guys who might turn out as good as Trumbo Bourjos and Kendrick. You trade older guys to get younger guys. 

[rageous]

CJ Wilson and Vargas should both be traded.

They should bring back some pieces to retool the farm system.

[Brandon]

I'm all for this if winning the WS was done in the minors.

[Catwhoshatinthehat]

@Cat - I don't see how the Angels could get much for either Howie or Aybar.  Certainly not enough to make any noticeable impact, because there is no real talent in the minors to fill in the gaps.

 

During a fire sale it's not always about how much you get it's also about getting out of contracts and saving some money.  Again I'm not advocating trading anyone but realistically the big contracts aren't going anywhere and you don't trade Trumbo/Bourjous hoping you get players like them in 2-3 years.  I really don't think there is much to be done other than play with what we have but if the team does start to trade away pieces guys with reasonable contracts are better options than cheap talent. 

[Chris]

I'm ok with trading away Wilson, Kendrick, Aybar, Callaspo, Vargas, Hansen, Blanton, bullpen arms, etc.

 

I'd hold onto Weaver, Pujols, Hamilton, Trout, Trumbo, Bourjos, etc.

 

so not an all out firesale - a semi-sale

[Jason]

Based on the majority of posts in this thread, I conclude that this team is going to suck for a while.

[HaloFan85]

I disagree.  By dealing the tradeable assets (Trumbo, Bourjos, Kendrick, etc) they can start re-stocking the farm system and speed up the overall rebuilding process.  Holding on to those guys just in the hopes of being mediocre for the next few years is silly.

Sosh and the rest of his management crew would go before they decide to completely rebuild.

[austin724]

The problem with a fire sale is that it would take this team several years to get back into contention. I do believe that even if things don't get straightened out this year this team stands a much better chance of a worst to first record next year.

[stormngt]

I disagree.  By dealing the tradeable assets (Trumbo, Bourjos, Kendrick, etc) they can start re-stocking the farm system and speed up the overall rebuilding process.  Holding on to those guys just in the hopes of being mediocre for the next few years is silly.

Yes we can trade away Bourjos, Kendrick, Trumbo, and Aybar and get the next McPhearson and Wood.

[Bob Trop]

The major problem in making trades is that no team is going to trade obvious ML pitching. You have to be able to project A and under prospects and hope they don't get injured. Unless you are trading AllStar caliber players, scouting lower level prospects will be key. Also, maybe getting lucky in the international market with young arms.

[stormngt]

Based on the majority of posts in this thread, I conclude that this team is going to suck for a while.

Team is going to suck so long as Pujols and Hamilton suck!  The franchise has banked their offensive success on those two players.  

[WallyWorld]

Sosh and the rest of his management crew would go before they decide to completely rebuild.

 

Agreed.  But depending on how bad things get in the next few weeks, that could happen.

[Angelsjunky]

The problem with a fire sale is that it would take this team several years to get back into contention. I do believe that even if things don't get straightened out this year this team stands a much better chance of a worst to first record next year.

 

Deja vu.

[ScottT]

Trading Aybar and Kendrick at this point... or later this year.. makes little sense.  Its not like you have minor leaguers ready to take their spots. They are valuable and have reasonable contracts.  Sure, you can get a couple prospects, but are a couple prospects going to turn the team around?   If you get four or five, what are the odds two of them will pan out and even match what Aybar and Kendrick provide?   Trumbo makes no sense, especially since Pujols will likely be a DH sooner than everyone thought.  

 

This team can still turn it around. This year.  Gonna be tough, but stranger things have happened.  

[ukyah]

every single aspect of this team has been unprepared to take the field and has drastically underperformed, i don't see how the coaching staff can't be held accountable.

 

the coaches and scioscia have to be fired.