Here is the one all-time record that will NEVER be broken......and why that sucks!

[WeatherWonk]

They say, NEVER SAY NEVER, but the record that will NEVER be broken is the record for complete games in a career. That belongs to Cy Young, of course. 749. If I recall, he won 511 games, so he completed almost 250 losses. That was a totally different era, of course.

But it is truly amazing how baseball has changed in even the last 40 years. There isnt a single active player in the top 1000 in complete games. There are only a handful in the top 1000 whose careers began after 1980. Amazing!

And, if I'm not mistaken, there is only one pitcher in the top 1000 whose career began after the year 2000. CC Sabathia. He's at 997.

So, what's my point?

I'm seeing these proposals to speed up the game and add more offense and cut down on the number of K's and I think the biggest contributing factor to all of these is the rise of the situational reliever. You bring in a reliever, that's a five minute stoppage in the game, counting both mound visits, the stroll in from the BP, the warm up tosses, the guy getting back in the box and the delivery of the first pitch. You bring in a guy who's that fresh and he blows hitters away in situations where more runs are a possibility. More runs are good for baseball, IMO. 

I think the best idea I have heard is to force a pitcher (barring an injury, of course) to pitch to 2 or even 3 batters, when they enter. 

Cy Young's record isn't going to be threatened by this, of course. CC Sabathia will probably be firmly entrenched at 997 for the foreseeable future.

But it solves several problems without relying on something subjective, like how a strike zone is interpreted. There is no having to explain how a runner materialized on second in extra innings, statistically. It minimizes the fortuitous matchups that favors pitching.  It removes the second biggest stoppage in play (excluding injuries) outside of between innings. And it keeps a clock out of baseball; one of the things that really distinguishes baseball from most all the other team sports. This might cut 10 minutes off a game, if that is so important (which most fans dont care about, but the MLB execs do, for some reason).

I'd love to see this implemented. There is precedent. A pitcher must pitch to one batter, when he enters the game. Just make it two or three.

Relievers may have to dial it down some, if they may be required to throw more than 10 pitches (gawd forbid!). That could mean more offense.

Managers will have to be more circumspect about how they use these relievers. Opposing managers may see the beauty in having a well-balanced lineup of righties and lefties.

But nobody is going to have to re-learn a strike zone or concentrate on a shot clock, fer chrissakes. 

I can see it now. A manager will come bouncing out of a dugout and demand a replay as to whether a pitcher delivered a pitch within 20 seconds. We'll have slo-mo with a superimposed clock and a frame-by-frame breakdown as to whether it left his hand. Or what constituted the start of his delivery, if that is what the clock determines.

This change is so simple and requires so little to implement. And it could be reasonably effective at getting more offense back into the game. Certainly, it will quicken the pace a bit. Make up the TV timeouts that would be lost, elsewhere.

Get it done, MLB!!!

 

[Lou]

 

31 minutes ago, WeatherWonk said:

They say, NEVER SAY NEVER, but the record that will NEVER be broken is the record for complete games in a career. That belongs to Cy Young, of course. 749. If I recall, he won 511 games, so he completed almost 250 losses. That was a totally different era, of course.

your math makes the assumption that all 511 wins were complete games. 

that being said, his numbers are ridiculous. in his first full season (1891) he started 46 games and had 43 complete games. 

[WeatherWonk]

Yep, that was an incorrect assumption.

Just like MLB assuming we are pounding down the gates to have games be quicker and shorter.

I'd settle for more runs and just as long, or longer.

[Chuck]

Chicks & DUDES love the long ball. I agree, I don't have a problem with the games being so long. 

That said, I do like the occasional pitchers duel or when our team pitches a shutout. 

[California Cajun]

Without really knowing if this was the case, I don't think pitchers put the kind of stress on their arms that today's pitchers do.  You could throw a spit ball legally until abut 1920.  Watching old newsreels, some of the pitchers seemed to sling the ball with their exaggerated windups.  The Red Sox manager alternated two pitchers down the stretch run in the 1949 pennant race.  There were 16 teams before 1961, so there was more weeding out.  The mound could be any height.  The media didn't scrutinize the game like they do now. Today's pitchers are babied along because of the money invested in them.  Any number of factors make the game different and hard to compare.

[Angel Oracle]

And then, the Cubs and Indians changed the pitcher use further in the 2016 post-season, as even Kluber went from 7 inn/start to 5.2 inn/start in the post-season.

[Ace-Of-Diamonds]

1 hour ago, WeatherWonk said:

Cy Young's record isn't going to be threatened by this, of course. CC Sabathia will probably be firmly entrenched at 997 for the foreseeable future.

977 Wadsworth, J ..39
987 Fox, J     .........38
987 Oldham, R      38
987 *Sabathia, C.. 38
987 Sweetland, L. 38
987 Vuckovich, P. 38
987 Weaver, J   .  38
993 Abbott, G    .. 37

CC Sabathia will probably be firmly entrenched at 987

[fan_since79]

If you take Cy Young's most productive years from 1891 to 1909, when he started the most games, he averaged 40 starts, 5 relief appearances, and 37 complete games. Also averaged 364 innings.

Was he ever injured and out for an extended period? Doesn't seem like it.

 

[gotbeer]

This had me interested, so I looked up a few things.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/y/youngcy01.shtml

Cy Young's career spanned from 1890 to 1911 when he was 44.  1904 was the last time he started over 40 games.  When he was 42 he started over 30 games.

Now here is the part that actually makes the number of starts make sense. 

http://www.baseball-almanac.com/articles/baseball_rosters.shtml

Just remember, that it takes 8 players every game and 1 pitcher to field a team.  In 1881 the size of a professional baseball team was 11 players.  It was increased to 14 sometime after.  In 1892, the # of players was increased to 15, but in the NL (where Young pitched till 1900) it was reduced to 13.  In 1901, they increased the player size to 18, but later in the year decreased it to the NL level of 14.  In 1908, when Cy Young was 41, the roster size was increased to 17.  In 1914, the 25 man roster started.

So a majority of his playtime, he played on a roster of 14 players.  Also of note, the number of games per season was 140 to 154 games a season. 

[Junkballer]

4 hours ago, WeatherWonk said:

But it solves several problems without relying on something subjective, like how a strike zone is interpreted. There is no having to explain how a runner materialized on second in extra innings, statistically. It minimizes the fortuitous matchups that favors pitching.  It removes the second biggest stoppage in play (excluding injuries) outside of between innings. And it keeps a clock out of baseball; one of the things that really distinguishes baseball from most all the other team sports. This might cut 10 minutes off a game, if that is so important (which most fans dont care about, but the MLB execs do, for some reason).

 

 

To implement a minimum number of batters a pitcher sees there would have to be a consequence for taking a pitcher out before the minimum, injury or not.   You can't just give injured pitchers a pass because you'd be encouraging faking to get around the rule. The NFL had to address faking injuries to stop the clock late in games and this would be along the same lines.  I'd rather see a pitch clock than pitchers faking it.   

[Angelsjunky]

There are a bunch of records that will "never" be broken - not only complete games but shutouts, batting average, and others.

As far as complete games go, here are some tidbits:

Last player to complete 10+ games in a season: James Shields - 11 in 2011.

Last player to complete 20+ games in a season: Fernando Valenzuela - 20 in 1986.

Last player to complete 30+ games in a season: Catfish Hunter - 30 in 1975.

Last player to complete 40+ games in a season: Ed Walsh - 42 in 1908.

Last player to complete 50+ games in a season: Amos Rusie - 50 in 1893.

Last player to complete 60+ games in a season: Bill Hutchinson - 67 in 1892.

Last player to complete 70+ games in a season: Old Hoss Radbourn  - 73 in 1884.

 

Clearly the game has changed, which a big reduction in complete games - and games started - around the turn of the century, then a slow tapering off, but generally table as the four-man rotation became the default. Then two things happened in the 70s: the four-man rotation became five-man, and relief pitching became more prominent.

[arch stanton]

When I was a kid I remember reading that Cy said he retired not because he couldn't pitch anymore but because he was too old and fat to field his position. I feel his pain

[Vegas Halo Fan]

5 hours ago, Chuckster70 said:

Chicks & DUDES love the long ball. I agree, I don't have a problem with the games being so long. 

That said, I do like the occasional pitchers duel or when our team pitches a shutout. 

I don't mind 1-0 or 2-1 games. I just don't want a steady diet of them.

[arch stanton]

I can enjoy pretty much any style of baseball that's played well. What I don't enjoy is watching peacocks strut around the mound or the batter box rubbing up balls or adjusting their accessories

[Ohtaniland]

I would never expect modern day players to put up numbers like that but......I also never expected the modern day pussification that we see today. We will be very fortunate to get 180 innings out of any of our starters this season. 

We will have 2 starters this season with pitch counts and 2 more next season. So I guess 2019 is when we will have a unleashed fully functional staff.....if all goes right.

In 1974 Mike Marshall of the Dodgers pitched 208 innings.....all in relief. 

[tdawg87]

I was really confused by the wording in the OP. I thought you were saying Sabathia had 997 career CG's and I thought I went insane for a minute. 

[Lou]

21 hours ago, WeatherWonk said:

Yep, that was an incorrect assumption.

Just like MLB assuming we are pounding down the gates to have games be quicker and shorter.

I'd settle for more runs and just as long, or longer.

I agree completely. It amazes what they try to do to shorten a game by 3 or 4 minutes. 

[Blarg]

Then stuff more commercials in to fill that time. 

[Lou]

the number of walks and strikeouts were much less when he pitched, so i would imagine pitch counts were also lower. 

[Angel Oracle]

17 hours ago, Vegas Halo Fan said:

I don't mind 1-0 or 2-1 games. I just don't want a steady diet of them.

1968 can keep their baseball style to themselves.

[Erstad Grit]

On 2/20/2017 at 2:30 PM, Ace-Of-Diamonds said:

977 Wadsworth, J ..39
987 Fox, J     .........38
987 Oldham, R      38
987 *Sabathia, C.. 38
987 Sweetland, L. 38
987 Vuckovich, P. 38
987 Weaver, J   .  38
993 Abbott, G    .. 37

CC Sabathia will probably be firmly entrenched at 987

I'm guessing that's not Jeff or Jered Weaver

[Ace-Of-Diamonds]

28 minutes ago, Erstad Grit said:

I'm guessing that's not Jeff or Jered Weaver

I think it's Jim Weaver 1937.

[WeatherWonk]

So, the powers that be in baseball have managed to agree to save one minute every 2.6 games, by giving us the automatic intentional walk. What a breakthrough in speeding up the games!

IBBs are way down these days. What can we conclude from that?

I think it might be the fact that Ks are on the rise, so why not gamble on the hitter striking out, especially if you are bringing in situational relievers as early as the 6th?

This doesnt improve the game one lick. I can only suppose that gaining this minute will help them justify selling another media minute, at some point in the future.

It's very clear to me what's going on. I dont think it's REALLY about speeding up the game. The fans aren't demanding it. The baseball hierarchy is. It's about keeping the game  about the same length while they carve out more means of getting media money out of the sport. As successful as the sport is, there is always room for more greed.