Twins acquire Santiago

[beatlesrule]

4 hours ago, totdprods said:

From Taylor Blake Ward's Twitter:

"Ricky Nolasco has a career 3.63 ERA and 1.069 WHIP in AL West parks, the lowest of any division for both statistics #Angels"

This is the only positive thing about this trade.  Thanks for posting this. 

[mulwin444]

4 hours ago, totdprods said:

From Taylor Blake Ward's Twitter:

"Ricky Nolasco has a career 3.63 ERA and 1.069 WHIP in AL West parks, the lowest of any division for both statistics #Angels"

To be fair, he did face the Angels offenses from the past few years 

[Rico]

People are really cherry picking stats to try and make this look good.  I get we made this trade for Meyer.  There is no need to try to sell us on Nolasco.

[AngelsFaninGA]

7 minutes ago, mulwin444 said:

To be fair, he did face the Angels offenses from the past few years 

I looked into that stat a bit more. It's based on a sample size of:

3 starts in 2016 (2 of which weren't very good but he got a ton of run support)

0 starts in 2015

1 start in 2014 (in which he got lit up against the angels)

0 starts in 2013 (was in the NL)

0 starts in 2012 ( again, in the NL)

So holy sample size bias batman. It reminds me of when we would get mad at Scioscia for benching a guy because he was 0-3 lifetime against a pitcher

[mulwin444]

1 minute ago, AngelsFaninGA said:

I looked into that stat a bit more. It's based on a sample size of:

3 starts in 2016 (2 of which weren't very good but he got a ton of run support)

0 starts in 2015

1 start in 2014 (in which he got lit up against the angels)

0 starts in 2013 (was in the NL)

0 starts in 2012 ( again, in the NL)

So holy sample size bias batman. It reminds me of when we would get mad at Scioscia for benching a guy because he was 0-3 lifetime against a pitcher

It was a joke but thanks for the analysis

[beatlesrule]

2 hours ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

It seems to me that a lot of Angels fans want the team to gamble on players who have a big upside but haven't done it yet. That's pretty much what people want to see. All of this "trade everyone and rebuild" talk is about what exactly? Do you want to trade Hector Santiago to get a younger Hector Santiago? They have Santiago now and they aren't good, because they lack front of the rotation starters. How do you think you get those guys? Well you can't acquire some team's legit top prospect talent for anything the Angels have. You can't get Julio Urias or Lucas Giolito. You can get a) a lower ceiling guy like Ariel Miranda (who the M's got for Santiago comp Wade Miley) or b ) a high ceiling guy with some issues. Which way do you want to go? Do you want to just keep bringing in more Santiagos, more 4-5 starters? More guys who throw 120 pitches in five innings? Or do you want to take a chance.

I'll bet if you had heard, "hey, we can trade Alan Busenitz for Alex Meyer, a former stud prospect" you'd have lined up to do it, right?

Essentially, that's what they did, with the caveat that they also made Hector Santiago a little worse in a season in which the team probably isn't going to be that good anyway.

Obviously, it may not work at all. But if you are where the Angels are, you have to gamble. You can't just keep loading up on safe Santiagos and Mirandas.

The problem is that this is a flawed philosophy.  The major league team is mediocre to bad.  The farm system shouldn't even still be called one.  The owner won't spend over the tax.  The team has overpaid vets on it.  The Rangers just got leagues better than the Angels and still have a nice farm.  I won't even go into the other teams in the division.  We all know the situation.   This gambling they are doing is pointless.  They are wasting Trout and only seem to care about keeping season ticket holders and attracting 3 million fans.  They could have improved the farm by trading Santiago, Escobar, Salas, Johnny G and even Shoe and Calhoun(who'd both bring back a ton in return) for younger pieces and their major league team could then use guys like Petit and Marte etc full time.  Bring up Cowart and whatever other farm guys you can and see what some of these guys have. 

Worried about the rotation?  Bring back a simi ready arm or 2 in the trades you just made.  As other GM's proved, you can get guys that aren't playing a lot and are young that are major league ready. Bring up Nate Smith.  You still have Trout, Cron, Simmons and Pujols and the young guys now have full time jobs and will be playing with passion and energy.  Fans would still come to the ballpark.  Next year would be looking a lot better with a semi respectable farm and the TJ Amigos maybe coming back and helping out.  This is a way better plan than the hoping maybe everyone has career years and everything goes perfectly and the rest of the division all gets injured and some kind of disease plan they have now.  This ORG is not winning anytime soon and that really sucks.

[Jay]

16 hours ago, NotMyCat said:

I like Santiago, but he was basically a 5 inning starter.  

that's on a good day

 

[Jobu]

7 hours ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

They may be wrong but their opinion is far more well informed than yours or mine. 

How comforting. 

 

[Torridd]

18 hours ago, SigBaby said:

I don't understand the hate for Meyer he hasn't even been given a chance in the majors and was a top prospect not long ago. Santiago has shown only that he is inconsistent and couldn't be relied upon for anything. That being said I do think we couldve gotten a better return given how the market has played out

I'm generally optimistic Sig, but this is a bad trade. Hector, 5-inning pitcher or not, had been doing well and was comfortable on the team.

Nolasco is crap. No doubt about that. Our only chance is if Meyer gets his act together. And then we gave up another pitcher. 

[Torridd]

18 hours ago, eaterfan said:

I think this is the second worst trade of the 2000 behind only the Wells trade. I'm not even under the impression that Santiago was good. He's probably a 4-5 starter on a decent team but at least he has a little upside and is semi cheap. We just took on an expensive 5 starter with only downside and a minor leaguer who is most likely a bust. I have no problem with the Angels taking a flier on some guys but then don't trade for a guy in his mid 30s.

I think this is worse than the Wells trade because you're taking a gamble on a guy with an injury history. Wells had a history and was healthy. I think more of us hate this trade especially since Santiago has been successful, an All-star to boot.

[Lou]

20 minutes ago, Torridd said:

I think this is worse than the Wells trade because you're taking a gamble on a guy with an injury history. Wells had a history and was healthy. I think more of us hate this trade especially since Santiago has been successful, an All-star to boot.

Not even close

[Stradling]

22 minutes ago, Torridd said:

I think this is worse than the Wells trade because you're taking a gamble on a guy with an injury history. Wells had a history and was healthy. I think more of us hate this trade especially since Santiago has been successful, an All-star to boot.

Then you think wrong.  Wells was expensive and bad.  Nolasco is just bad.  Meyers is a question mark.  

[Catwhoshatinthehat]

This is in no way worse than the Wells trade.  Nolasco has been well below league average for 3 years now but it's clear Meyers is the long term piece the Angels FO wanted and values in this trade.  I'm still not really a fan of the trade but one way I look at it is that I don't really expect much from the Angels next year and this is a long term move.  I realize a lot can and will happen as far as FA/trades but realistically just like I felt going into 2016 a lot will have to go right for the team to compete in 2017.   

[Stradling]

My entire issue with the trade is the philosophy.  I would rather take a couple of healthy prospects a year or two away than take a chance on a pitcher that is rehabbing.  If Eppler is right and Meyers can figure it out, or if he is just a very good bullpen arm then I will be fine with the trade.  Hector wasn't great, but he was capable of great 5 or 6 inning outings.  Problem is then we have to go to the pen.  Maybe the next time we have a 5 inning starter, going to the pen won't be as big of an issue because Meyers can be a shut down reliever.  I have no idea, but it's not like we gave up a polished starter with no issues. 

[Torridd]

9 hours ago, mulwin444 said:

I think people know you are not getting a good, top level prospect for Santiago but alternatively people are not going to be thrilled when you take on an older, worse SP for the chance of a 26/27 year old injured faded prospect to realize the potential that has never really shown signs of surfacing.  It sounds highly unrealistic to expect a return on that gamble when the guys' own drafting franchise doesn't see a need to hold on to him.  There is desperate but hopeful and there is THIS.

This is how I see it. If we wanted to concentrate on starters, then keep Santiago. If we want to get arms, we could have traded Santiago for younger guys with better track records or younger track records. Nolasco is who he is. He's not going to get better overnight. This deal is going to rely on Meyer. I think Santiago IS better than Nolasco so they're not a wash. Santiago had been playing well and was comfortable playing for us. Now we have to start over with Nolasco. I'm not ready to say Eppler is awful because he's done some good things, but like the Simmons' deal, as someone has said, I am scratching my head. The good thing is that that deal has worked out so far. Hopefully, Eppler is right about this too. 

[arch stanton]

2 minutes ago, Torridd said:

This is how I see it. If we wanted to concentrate on starters, then keep Santiago. If we want to get arms, we could have traded Santiago for younger guys with better track records or younger track records. Nolasco is who he is. He's not going to get better overnight. This deal is going to rely on Meyer. I think Santiago IS better than Nolasco so they're not a wash. Santiago had been playing well and was comfortable playing for us. Now we have to start over with Nolasco. I'm not ready to say Eppler is awful because he's done some good things, but like the Simmons' deal, as someone has said, I am scratching my head. The good thing is that that deal has worked out so far. Hopefully, Eppler is right about this too. 

Who are these younger guys with better track records and which are the teams looking to trade them for Hector?

[fan_since79]

Everything hinges on Meyer's health. This is a high-risk bet on Eppler's part. I hope it pays off in 2017 and beyond. But it's not like Santiago was going to win a Cy Young or anything even close. He's an above-average starter, nothing more.

Feeling a little better about the trade this morning.

 

 

[Troll Daddy]

Eppler traded for the best pitching prospect available that Santiago could bring the Angels. We got a young cost controlled pitcher with huge upside. Fletcher said his upside is much higher than Tropeano's.

damn you Eppler!

[DMVol]

10 hours ago, arch stanton said:

Former top 50 prospect with control issues? When I look at who was involved here it just looks to me like we traded for a slightly older, right handed Sean Newcomb.

Except Newcomb hasn't had any shoulder issues....

[Inside Pitch]

 

10 hours ago, Oz27 said:

They also traded a mediocre Andrew Cashner and a few other bits and pieces for high upside minor league talent. 

The only minor league talent they got in that trade was Josh Naylor, a short unathletic 1B that hasn't really hit like a 1B yet.   The rest of that trade was Carter Capps, a RP rehabbing TJ surgery and Jarred Cosart -- keep in mind they threw in another guy too..   You seem to be overstating the return on Cashner just a tad...

[Troll Daddy]

2 minutes ago, DMVol said:

Except Newcomb hasn't had any shoulder issues....

Meyers shoulder issue is no different than Skaggs ... it's being reported as tendinitis. 

Angels did their homework and went over his medicals with a 'fine tooth comb'. 

[AngelsLakersFan]

7 minutes ago, Inside Pitch said:

 

The only minor league talent they got in that trade was Josh Naylor, a short unathletic 1B that hasn't really hit like a 1B yet.   The rest of that trade was Carter Capps, a RP rehabbing TJ surgery and Jarred Cosart -- keep in mind they threw in another guy too..   You seem to be overstating the return on Cashner just a tad...

Naylor was in the futures game right? I'm pretty sure he's the guy who I pointed at and yelled "that's not a prospect!!" as if everyone could hear me through the television....

[Stradling]

With our recent history (going back to Morales) the jokes are too easy to make about the Angels being able to diagnose the extent of an injury looking at an MRI.  So I will just cross my fingers and hope the guy has tendinitis. 

[Inside Pitch]

1 minute ago, AngelsLakersFan said:

Naylor was in the futures game right? I'm pretty sure he's the guy who I pointed at and yelled "that's not a prospect!!" as if everyone could hear me through the television....

Yep..  Canadian kid with John Kruk's physique.

[AngelsLakersFan]

It looks like he has a history of shoulder issues. He's missed a lot of time in his minor league career.

The obvious defense of the move is that Meyer is a high upside prospect at a high risk. Unfortunately no matter how I look at this guy I can't help but see him as a failed prospect. A Grant Green type or maybe a guy like Corey Rasmus, who couldn't stay healthy as a starter, looked decent out of the pen, but ultimately couldn't stay healthy there either. This is the return you expect for a Joe Smith, not a starting pitcher with another year of control.