Twins acquire Santiago

[NrM]

4 hours ago, calscuf said:

It's usually about this time in a thread when the guys trying to justify and rationalize the trade start popping up.

Since Chuck didn't go agro in the first couple of pages like I expected it's hard to say when he'll start turning, and then come out in favor of the trade.  Five more pages?

haha I fucking love you man. 

[Erstad Grit]

Trade looks horrible to me, but time will tell if Meyer can turn into anything. 

[Oz27]

7 minutes ago, Mr Meeseeks said:

At least Jerry treated the fans and media with respect and dignity. You can't even say that about Billy Eppler.

I don't really care if the GM is the biggest c**t in the universe as long as they know what they're doing. Eppler isn't giving me much reason to believe he can do that.

[NrM]

1 minute ago, Oz27 said:

I don't really care if the GM is the biggest c**t in the universe as long as they know what they're doing. Eppler isn't giving me much reason to believe he can do that.

Front Offices with a history of success have that privilege, but dysfunctional organizations like the Angels should be trying to win us over, not keeping us in the dark about everything. 

[vladdy#27]

I guess I'm in the minority as someone that likes this trade. Nolasco and Santiago aren't really that much different. Both give up a lot of home runs. Santiago gives up less hits, but walks more, so both are going to have a similar WHIP. Since Santiago has been in the major leagues Nolasco has had a high WAR in every single season, including this one. The Twins are paying Nolasco this season (while we are still paying for Santiago) and giving us 4M next season to cover the cost difference. Then we have the ability to pick up Nolasco for an additional season longer than Santiago is under contract for. It also evens out our rotation. If we keep Santiago we are heading into 2017 with 3 lefties in our rotation (Santiago, Skaggs, and Smith)

2016

Player A: IP 124 FIP 4.29 K/9 6.7 BB/9 2.1 WHIP 1.35 HR/9 1.3  WAR 1.5 (Nolasco)

Player B: IP 120 FIP 5.03 K/9 8.0 BB/9 4.3 WHIP 1.33 HR/9 1.5 WAR 0.5 (Santiago)

 

On top of basically swapping Santiago for a right handed version of himself we also acquire a guy we all would have been ecstatic to acquire a year ago for Santiago. Meyer's has had success in the upper minors, while still unproven at the big league level the potential is definitely there. Even if he can't stick in the rotation past 2017, we really wouldn't need him there (Richards, Heaney, Skaggs, Shoemaker, Tropeano, Smith), he looks like a guy that could have success at the back end of a bullpen. Look at Wade Davis, he put up a 5+ ERA in 2013 at 27 years old as a starter. While not having much success before that. In his age 28 season and since he has been one of the best relief pitchers in baseball. Pomeranz struggled in his first 3 seasons in the big leagues, he was younger and pitching in Coors, but he was a top pick that took a while to develop, and a move to the bullpen, to figure things out. Andrew Miller is another guy.

 

I'm not saying that Meyers is going to be the next Wade Davis, Drew Pomeranz, or Andrew Miller but he definitely has the potential. While there is risk in Meyer's reaching his potential, there isn't much risk in this trade as Santiago to Nolasco is a lateral move. We can only gain, while we can't really lose. Even if Meyer's amounts to nothing and Nolasco gets worse it will still lead toward making the Angels better as it will give us a better draft pick.

[totdprods]

From Taylor Blake Ward's Twitter:

"Ricky Nolasco has a career 3.63 ERA and 1.069 WHIP in AL West parks, the lowest of any division for both statistics #Angels"

[ten ocho recon scout]

1 hour ago, Mr Meeseeks said:

At least Jerry treated the fans and media with respect and dignity. You can't even say that about Billy Eppler.

That wasn't his rep in the clubhouse, though...

[Vegas Halo Fan]

7 hours ago, nate said:

Guess Nolasco is just in the deal to neutralize the $.  Wonder if the Angels will DFA

An article I read in the OCR said that the Angels had to take Nolasco in order for the deal to go through. The Twins are sending cash to offset the difference in salary.

[disarcina]

I thought we were trying to shed salary..........oh well.

[Jeff Fletcher]

It seems to me that a lot of Angels fans want the team to gamble on players who have a big upside but haven't done it yet. That's pretty much what people want to see. All of this "trade everyone and rebuild" talk is about what exactly? Do you want to trade Hector Santiago to get a younger Hector Santiago? They have Santiago now and they aren't good, because they lack front of the rotation starters. How do you think you get those guys? Well you can't acquire some team's legit top prospect talent for anything the Angels have. You can't get Julio Urias or Lucas Giolito. You can get a) a lower ceiling guy like Ariel Miranda (who the M's got for Santiago comp Wade Miley) or b ) a high ceiling guy with some issues. Which way do you want to go? Do you want to just keep bringing in more Santiagos, more 4-5 starters? More guys who throw 120 pitches in five innings? Or do you want to take a chance.

I'll bet if you had heard, "hey, we can trade Alan Busenitz for Alex Meyer, a former stud prospect" you'd have lined up to do it, right?

Essentially, that's what they did, with the caveat that they also made Hector Santiago a little worse in a season in which the team probably isn't going to be that good anyway.

Obviously, it may not work at all. But if you are where the Angels are, you have to gamble. You can't just keep loading up on safe Santiagos and Mirandas.

[arch stanton]

Former top 50 prospect with control issues? When I look at who was involved here it just looks to me like we traded for a slightly older, right handed Sean Newcomb.

[tomsred]

Excellent take Jeff, well done!

[Oz27]

11 minutes ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

It seems to me that a lot of Angels fans want the team to gamble on players who have a big upside but haven't done it yet. That's pretty much what people want to see. All of this "trade everyone and rebuild" talk is about what exactly? Do you want to trade Hector Santiago to get a younger Hector Santiago? They have Santiago now and they aren't good, because they lack front of the rotation starters. How do you think you get those guys? Well you can't acquire some team's legit top prospect talent for anything the Angels have. You can't get Julio Urias or Lucas Giolito. You can get a) a lower ceiling guy like Ariel Miranda (who the M's got for Santiago comp Wade Miley) or b ) a high ceiling guy with some issues. Which way do you want to go? Do you want to just keep bringing in more Santiagos, more 4-5 starters? More guys who throw 120 pitches in five innings? Or do you want to take a chance.

I'll bet if you had heard, "hey, we can trade Alan Busenitz for Alex Meyer, a former stud prospect" you'd have lined up to do it, right?

Essentially, that's what they did, with the caveat that they also made Hector Santiago a little worse in a season in which the team probably isn't going to be that good anyway.

Obviously, it may not work at all. But if you are where the Angels are, you have to gamble. You can't just keep loading up on safe Santiagos and Mirandas.

The Padres traded Drew Pomeranz for someone who projects to be way better than Drew Pomeranz. They also traded a mediocre Andrew Cashner and a few other bits and pieces for high upside minor league talent. Buying teams very often pay a premium for talent, particularly at times like this. Average major league starting pitchers (which Santiago is) are supposed to be worth more than a relief prospect and a starter on a bad contract.

[mulwin444]

I think people know you are not getting a good, top level prospect for Santiago but alternatively people are not going to be thrilled when you take on an older, worse SP for the chance of a 26/27 year old injured faded prospect to realize the potential that has never really shown signs of surfacing.  It sounds highly unrealistic to expect a return on that gamble when the guys' own drafting franchise doesn't see a need to hold on to him.  There is desperate but hopeful and there is THIS.

[Stradling]

4 hours ago, Mr Meeseeks said:

/lock thread

You call it homer I call positive.  But no this isn't a positive day.  I would have preferred the most talent possible regardless of what level of minor leagues.

[Chuck]

3 hours ago, totdprods said:

From Taylor Blake Ward's Twitter:

"Ricky Nolasco has a career 3.63 ERA and 1.069 WHIP in AL West parks, the lowest of any division for both statistics #Angels"

Hmmm

[tomsred]

Guys, watch the Fletcher Thread.  The trade is Santiago for Alex Meyer, not Nolasco.  Jeff explains it far better than I can.  Nolasco is filler.

[tomsred]

1 hour ago, Oz27 said:

The Padres traded Drew Pomeranz for someone who projects to be way better than Drew Pomeranz. They also traded a mediocre Andrew Cashner and a few other bits and pieces for high upside minor league talent. Buying teams very often pay a premium for talent, particularly at times like this. Average major league starting pitchers (which Santiago is) are supposed to be worth more than a relief prospect and a starter on a bad contract.

They didn't buy Meyer as a relief prospect.  They see him as a possible starter either next year, or in 2018.  17 months ago he was ranked as the 14th best prospect in baseball.  Yes, it's a gamble, but if he performs up to that standard it could be a great trade.  Six years of control for a prime starter.  He has a higher ceiling right now than Santiago.  The only way the deal gets done is by the Angels agreeing to take Nolasco.

[mulwin444]

No I get it...they made themselves worse in 2017 with the hope that Meyers can be good by 2018.  Seems like a reach but, whatever.  The Meyers of the league get DFA'd all the time...should have just waited and hung on to Santiago

[Jeff Fletcher]

I also get that a lot of you look at Meyer and see his age and his injury and stats and think he has no chance. 

I have never laid eyes on the guy myself. 

But in my conversation with Angels people today, I can tell you they have been watching the guy for a long time and looked at his MRI (he had the same thing Skaggs had in May and June) and they all wanted him. 

They may be wrong but their opinion is far more well informed than yours or mine. 

[tomsred]

6 minutes ago, mulwin444 said:

No I get it...they made themselves worse in 2017 with the hope that Meyers can be good by 2018.  Seems like a reach but, whatever.  The Meyers of the league get DFA'd all the time...should have just waited and hung on to Santiago

Meyer should be ready in mid-September 2016, he had the same condition as Skaggs (shoulder) this year.  Yes Nolasko is a little worse than Santiago, but not by much.  At least he doesn't burn up bullpens like Santiago.  I predict he will not be here in 2018.  There is very, very little on the free agent pitcher list at the end of this year, so don't expect any help there.  I think it's more likely we get a little bullpen help that way.  As we stand today we have no chance at the playoffs in 2016 or 2017, we are playing for 2018, unless Eppler can hit on some big gambles for 2017.  

[mulwin444]

2 minutes ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

I also get that a lot of you look at Meyer and see his age and his injury and stats and think he has no chance. 

I have never laid eyes on the guy myself. 

But in my conversation with Angels people today, I can tell you they have been watching the guy for a long time and looked at his MRI (he had the same thing Skaggs had in May and June) and they all wanted him. 

They may be wrong but their opinion is far more well informed than yours or mine. 

Eppler has done a good job with finding some interesting waiver pickups and has won the Escobar and Simmons deal so he's got some collateral.  Without access to the same info he does, from the outside, this one is just odd.

[AngelsFaninGA]

10 minutes ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

I also get that a lot of you look at Meyer and see his age and his injury and stats and think he has no chance. 

I have never laid eyes on the guy myself. 

But in my conversation with Angels people today, I can tell you they have been watching the guy for a long time and looked at his MRI (he had the same thing Skaggs had in May and June) and they all wanted him. 

They may be wrong but their opinion is far more well informed than yours or mine. 

Then what else do we look at besides those three factors? Because that's exactly what you use to evaluate players. He's old, he has injury concerns, and his walk rate was very high in the minors in both 2014 and 2015 as well as in his short stints in the majors. Not to mention we have to endure Nolasco getting lit up every 5th day for the next 1.5 years. At least with Santiago there was always hope. Nolasco is in the Weaver/Lincecum/Piniero/etc tier of "just hurry up and dfa this guy"

Though I guess Meyer be a nice addition to our basketball team. Van Mil and Meyer will make a formidable front court combo.

[Troll Daddy]

2 minutes ago, tomsred said:

Meyer should be ready in mid-September 2016, he had the same condition as Skaggs (shoulder) this year.  Yes Nolasko is a little worse than Santiago, but not by much.  At least he doesn't burn up bullpens like Santiago.  I predict he will not be here in 2018.  There is very, very little on the free agent pitcher list at the end of this year, so don't expect any help there.  I think it's more likely we get a little bullpen help that way.  As we stand today we have no chance at the playoffs in 2016 or 2017, we are playing for 2018, unless Eppler can hit on some big gambles for 2017.  

When you have the opportunity to field one of the best offenses in the game ... there's always a chance.

All we need is another impact bat ... I have a good feeling that Eppler is going to  get one this off season. 

[mulwin444]

1 minute ago, tomsred said:

Meyer should be ready in mid-September 2016, he had the same condition as Skaggs (shoulder) this year.  Yes Nolasko is a little worse than Santiago, but not by much.  At least he doesn't burn up bullpens like Santiago.  I predict he will not be here in 2018.  There is very, very little on the free agent pitcher list at the end of this year, so don't expect any help there.  I think it's more likely we get a little bullpen help that way.  As we stand today we have no chance at the playoffs in 2016 or 2017, we are playing for 2018, unless Eppler can hit on some big gambles for 2017.  

Before Minnesota, Ricky WAS Santiago but the last three years he's been injured and pretty awful  (11 hits per 9, nearly 1.50 WHIP).  I know guys are looking at some pretty exotic stats to show the logic in the trade and why it COULD work...just seems we traded for another Weaver with a year left on his deal.  Luckily, odds are good he won't make it past even 160 IP next season so it will be a pretty easy buyout in '18