Heyman on Pujols signing

[kevinb]

1 hour ago, Dochalo said:

Pujols would kill at yankee stadium.  He'd still make an effort to hit the ball to the opposite field because he could still hit hrs that way.  Anyway, for most of us there was no question that Arte was the impetus for the pujols signing.  Frankly, him wanting to bring Pujols here doesn't bother me.  His decline is unprecedented and would not have been able to be predicted.  I seriously don't have a problem with the owner of a major league franchise getting intimately involved in the signing of a player that costs over 200mil and at the time was destined to be an inner circle hall of famer.  There would be significant owner involvement on any signing at that level.  

My problem with Arte extends beyond Pujols.  That one could be justified.  Hamilton?  Not so much.  But the real kicker is Arte's influence on the overall philosophy of this team ie the notion that all resources go to the major league club.  Something that I still see happening with the Simmons and Escobar trades.  So if you ask me whether I think that Arte has backed off and is letting Eppler do what he thinks is best for this team's future, then my answer is an unequivocal no.  

We might make some minor trades at the deadline, but don't be surprised if Escobar is still here a month from now.  

I agree with you. I wish there was a dislike button for your post haha cause I feel weird liking it that Arte is killing the farm and in turn this team  

[Billy_Ball]

6 hours ago, Kevinb said:

Cool so 240 for the season then?

247 isn't the low 200s like you said.  He's not hitting 219.

[m0nkey]

Damn there haven't been any "Jon hey man hates the Angels!" posts yet. Pretty impressive 

[Angelsjunky]

I've said it before, but his decline is only easily explainable if you assume he's 2-3 years older. I'm not saying that he is, but that it explains his decline. Consider that his rapid decline in his "early 30s" is unprecedented among players of similar ability and performance through age "30," but it doesn't look that extreme if you assume that he is, say, three years older.

His last true peak season was 2010, at "30." That makes more sense if he was 32-33. Then we see further decline, but still pretty good in 2011-12, at "31-32." Again, makes more sense if he's 33-34. From 2013-15 we see a lower level of production at age "33-35." Again, makes more sense if he's 35-37 or 36-38. Now he's "36" and having his worst season yet--and not halfway through his contract! Again, most inner circle greats--which Pujols was for his first 10 years--are still pretty good in their mid-30s. The guy looks and plays like he's approaching 40.

[kevinb]

2 hours ago, Billy_Ball said:

247 isn't the low 200s like you said.  He's not hitting 219.

No you're right 247 is high 200s we should be proud to pay 25 mil for that kind of production 

[kevinb]

10 minutes ago, Angelsjunky said:

I've said it before, but his decline is only easily explainable if you assume he's 2-3 years older. I'm not saying that he is, but that it explains his decline. Consider that his rapid decline in his "early 30s" is unprecedented among players of similar ability and performance through age "30," but it doesn't look that extreme if you assume that he is, say, three years older.

His last true peak season was 2010, at "30." That makes more sense if he was 32-33. Then we see further decline, but still pretty good in 2011-12, at "31-32." Again, makes more sense if he's 33-34. From 2013-15 we see a lower level of production at age "33-35." Again, makes more sense if he's 35-37 or 36-38. Now he's "36" and having his worst season yet--and not halfway through his contract! Again, most inner circle greats--which Pujols was for his first 10 years--are still pretty good in their mid-30s. The guy looks and plays like he's approaching 40.

When you juice your entire career and then stop after getting your final pay day. Take that a long with the fact the guy stopped working out and lost mobility and runs like a guy who's 50 to 60 then you got yourself Pujols

[jimbo]

20-25 million per for .260/30/100 isn't mind boggling out of line anymore. And if he keeps that line close to that for the next 3 or 4 years than maybe this contract isn't as putrid as it seemed once before. 

[beatlesrule]

http://www.foxsports.com/mlb/story/numbers-don-t-lie-the-decline-of-pujols-is-stunning-040914

[Oz27]

7 minutes ago, jimbo said:

20-25 million per for .260/30/100 isn't mind boggling out of line anymore. And if he keeps that line close to that for the next 3 or 4 years than maybe this contract isn't as putrid as it seemed once before. 

Albert has been a replacement level player this year and we're paying something like $25 million for the privilege of that, plus we have him for five more years. That's pretty damn putrid.

[kingsosha]

2 hours ago, m0nkey said:

Damn there haven't been any "Jon hey man hates the Angels!" posts yet. Pretty impressive 

if you follow Heyman on twitter , you will notice the only thing he hates is capital letters

[AngelsLakersFan]

1 hour ago, Kevinb said:

When you juice your entire career and then stop after getting your final pay day. Take that a long with the fact the guy stopped working out and lost mobility and runs like a guy who's 50 to 60 then you got yourself Pujols

I don't think Albert juiced. He may be a couple of years older than he says though. Out of high school the scouting reports seemed to indicate that they didn't expect his body to hold up for the long haul. He fell pretty far in the draft because of it, and it's funny reading them because it sounds expertly like Pujols today.

[zenmaster]

If Timofey Mozgov can get $16 mil per year then Pujols might be a better value. 

[ten ocho recon scout]

14 hours ago, CaliAngel said:

Even Albert's agent was so dumbfounded by Arte's offer that he knew there was no way Albert would say no.

It is kind of strange when the team you've been on for the past decade won't offer you a competitive extension, even though everyone else in baseball thinks you're amazing. Also love how the Cards went on to win a World Series without him. Guess they knew what they were doing.

Not gonna lie, I was excited for Albert to come here. But dear gawd that was a long time and a lot of money. It seemed overboard.

To be fair, st louis were offering him a huge contract, too. They just got lucky that we went crazy and outbid them like an impulse bid on ebay the last few seconds

[ten ocho recon scout]

1 hour ago, AngelsLakersFan said:

I don't think Albert juiced. He may be a couple of years older than he says though. Out of high school the scouting reports seemed to indicate that they didn't expect his body to hold up for the long haul. He fell pretty far in the draft because of it, and it's funny reading them because it sounds expertly like Pujols today.

The irony being that true as it may be, the team who drafted him would get a phenom bargain and not have to worry about the decline.

I could see him having juiced. And or him being a lot older. But i also wonder if of its mlre degenerative lower body issues. Loses his lower half, tries to overcompensate by muscling it, fails 

[Ace-Of-Diamonds]

He should hac

12 hours ago, California Cajun said:

During the MLB Network Winter Meetings coverage, it was mentioned  the Marlins offered $280 million, but wouldn't consider a no-trade clause.

He should have taken it. Being traded by Miami wouldn't be a bad thing. It worked out OK for Cabrera

[LooneyPlatoons]

6 hours ago, Kevinb said:

When you juice your entire career and then stop after getting your final pay day. Take that a long with the fact the guy stopped working out and lost mobility and runs like a guy who's 50 to 60 then you got yourself Pujols

He runs like a duck

 

[70runner]

6 hours ago, Angelsjunky said:

I've said it before, but his decline is only easily explainable if you assume he's 2-3 years older. I'm not saying that he is, but that it explains his decline. Consider that his rapid decline in his "early 30s" is unprecedented among players of similar ability and performance through age "30," but it doesn't look that extreme if you assume that he is, say, three years older.

His last true peak season was 2010, at "30." That makes more sense if he was 32-33. Then we see further decline, but still pretty good in 2011-12, at "31-32." Again, makes more sense if he's 33-34. From 2013-15 we see a lower level of production at age "33-35." Again, makes more sense if he's 35-37 or 36-38. Now he's "36" and having his worst season yet--and not halfway through his contract! Again, most inner circle greats--which Pujols was for his first 10 years--are still pretty good in their mid-30s. The guy looks and plays like he's approaching 40.

I'm also a subscriber to the falsified birth certificate theory, not exactly unprecedented in the Dominican Republic.  A time chart of OBP, for example, illustrates peak performance in 2008-9.  His other metric charts display a similar pattern.  The steep decline began in 2009 (certificate age 29), although performance levels remained well above avg for a couple more years which would be expected for an inner circle guy.  These charts may suggest an even larger age discrepancy than your projection.  Perhaps already in his early 40s which would put him at 32-34 during the peak (rather than 28-29 per the birth cert).     

[Angelsjunky]

Good stuff, 70runner. As I said, his last peak year was 2010, which was still in line with most of his prime years, even if below 2008-09. He was allegedly 30.

The reason I think his age is off by 2-4 years (I'd guess 3) is that most players really start to decline starting around 32-33; if he's really 3 years old, he would have been 33 in 2010. This also means that he would have been 24 in his rookie year, which seems more likely than the 21 he claimed.

I also think steroids might be a factor. Someone mentioned up-thread the possibility that he stopped juicing after he got his big contract. This wouldn't explain the decline he showed in 2011 from his peak form, however. Maybe it is both.

Anyhow, whatever combination it is--being older than advertised, using PEDs and then stopping, and just plain old decline--the end result is that he may be the most disappointing free agent signing in Angels history, and I find myself having a hard time enjoying him in an Angels uniform, let alone respecting him. I look forward to the day he retires.

[Stradling]

Ok, so here is how you guys think it played out.  A 19 year old comes over from the Dominican Republic to play baseball.  He comes to KC the baseball Mecca that it is.  He enrolls in high school not as a senior but as a sophomore, because what teenager doesn't want to redo three years of high school.  So as a 22 year old senior isn't good enough to be drafted out of high school.  He then goes to one year of college and is drafted 402nd in the draft, so he is now 23 and still isn't highly thought of.  Then he blossoms.  If he just came out of nowhere and performed like this and never did the three years of high school here, I would totally see your point.  To me though it just doesn't pass the smell test.  

[tdawg87]

Would he have been in a typical High School in the DR? 

[Angels#1Fan]

20 minutes ago, Stradling said:

Ok, so here is how you guys think it played out.  A 19 year old comes over from the Dominican Republic to play baseball.  He comes to KC the baseball Mecca that it is.  He enrolls in high school not as a senior but as a sophomore, because what teenager doesn't want to redo three years of high school.  So as a 22 year old senior isn't good enough to be drafted out of high school.  He then goes to one year of college and is drafted 402nd in the draft, so he is now 23 and still isn't highly thought of.  Then he blossoms.  If he just came out of nowhere and performed like this and never did the three years of high school here, I would totally see your point.  To me though it just doesn't pass the smell test.  

I have to agree, I'm not buying the age thing either..steroids? That's something else.

[sneaky_flute]

Where did Heyman get his information? If I'm not mistaken, the Angels offered Pujols about 20 million more than the Cardinals. 

[2112]

I do make fun of Pujols, but I understand the decision of signing him.  Arte had to make a big splash with the new TV deal. 

 

What I never understood is why a patient hitter with the Cardinals became a free swinger with the Angels. Some of those Cardinal teams had crummy lineups, yet he was ok with taking the walk.

with the Angels? "I hit mang. "

 

[Chuck]

I found this on my Facebook timeline.

http://m.stltoday.com/sports/columns/jeff-gordon/tipsheet-morales-outburst-vs-cards-reaffirms-angels-stupidity/article_85ce6aaf-625c-5392-b19f-2b06d3e6b4b8.html

[Pujols4MVP]

Al Davis Moreno. Started out good then ran it into the ground as he got older.

One has to wonder how Arte will be when he's 85 & if he starts wanting players benched because he doesn't like the way they smile.