I had a chat with a former NHL player last week...

[Chuck]

While I cannot reveal his name, he told me that he played around the same time as Wayne Gretzky and Mark Messier and that most players he talked to in the league all believed that Messier was the better player of the two. 

Thoughts?

[Tank]

if you're talking all around game (offense, defense, speed, toughness), then yes, messier could be considered the better player.

if you're talking about only scoring/offense, than it's hands-down gretzky.

[UndertheHalo]

I think an interesting discussion with regards to Gretzky is how his game would have converted during the trap era.  even into today.  Hockey has changed vastly since the great one was dominating the league.

[Brandon]

Eh, Messier was a good two way power forward. Gretzky was simply unstoppable as a center.

[Chuck]

21 hours ago, Brandon said:

Eh, Messier was a good two way power forward. Gretzky was simply unstoppable as a center.

@Brandon but the argument was that Gretz while with Edmonton had the dream team of players who cleared a scoring lane for the speedy skater. 

[Thomas]

It's a hard question. Today it would be like comparing a Patrick Kane versus a Jonathon Towes for instance.  It's apples to oranges. You could even throw Mario Lemieux into the conversation for the era, though injuries held him back, relatively speaking of course. So better may be subjective. However there have been a handful of players similar to or even better than Messier. However Gretzky still remains unique in his skill set.

[Thomas]

2 hours ago, Chuck Richter said:

@Brandon but the argument was that Gretz while with Edmonton had the dream team of players who cleared a scoring lane for the speedy skater. 

He still performed after being traded to a SIGNIFICANTLY inferior Kings team. He dragged them kicking and screaming to a Stanley Cup final in 93.  His performance against Toronto that year should be required watching for anyone interested in hockey. Man was a damn miracle worker.

[Brandon]

Funny, that 93 team is what got me into hockey and got me playing. That conference final against Toronto was beyond epic.

 

@Chuck Richter I think it also goes both ways, the players on Edmonton had Wayne. He set them up about as much as he scored. I can see someone saying Messier was better and respect the opinion, but Thomas hit the nail on the head, there have been more than a few guys like Mark and no one like Wayne.

[UndertheHalo]

IMO, it's possible, even likely that Messiers game would have translated better into today's game.  A stronger man with a mean streak.  Plus like you guys have noted, a good two way player.  While they were playing tho, there's no doubt that Gretzky was the better player.  Hockey back then didn't have much defense going on. 

Edited May 8, 2016 by UndertheHalo

[NJHalo]

Gretzky was a ridiculous scorer who operated on a plane that no one else approached. If points is your criteria, then Wayne is your man.

Mark Messier excelled at every part of the game, probably the best all round player ever. He was, by far, the greatest leader, and greatest captain in sports history. All sports. His natural hat trick in game 6 of the Rangers vs Devils 1994 conference finals was the greatest clutch performance I have ever witnessed. Not only did he guarantee a victory for the Rangers, who were facing elimination, but he put his money where his mouth is and scored 3 of their 4 goals, and assisted on the other. This is the stuff of legends. 

 

Edited May 8, 2016 by NJHalo

[Angel Oracle]

As good as those 1980's Oilers teams were, the Kings still pulled off one of the greatest SCP upsets ever, beating them in the max 5 games in 1982.

That Oilers team had 48 more points than the Kings that season (111-63).   They also averaged FIVE goals per game, and their +/- was +177 better than the Kings (+122 vs -55).    And boy, did the Edmonton newspaper unload on the Oilers on page 1, with the headline "Ohh Oilers, you choked!" and in the article "Played like a bunch of good time Charlies." 

Edited May 9, 2016 by Angel Oracle

[Thomas]

Those really young Oilers teams suffered from that inexperience. It wasn't until they played the Islanders in 1983 did they really understand, supremely talented that they were, the sacrifice it took to succeed in the playoffs. The Islanders after beating the Oilers were so beat up that they struggled to even celebrate the win while the Oilers weren't really worse for wear after it was over.  It really took the Oilers losing, and knowing the gnawing feeling of the disappointment, to understand and motivate them to give what it took.

 

[NJHalo]

Messier won 4 cups with Wayne in Edmonton, then won another without Wayne a few years later after Gretzky was traded.

Both players were traded to big market teams where only Mark was able to lead another franchise to a Cup. 

Another reason why I think Messier was the better all around player

[Thomas]

1988 LA was not a big market.

Alan Thicke on before Gretzky got to the Kings, he would call the Forum and ask when the game started, and they'd say "What time can you get here?"

Jack Kent Cooke on the all the Canadians transplants in LA. "Now I know why they left Canada: They hate hockey!"

[nate]

Gretzky is the greatest scorer in the history of the NHL hands down.

Messier is definitely the most complete player in the history of the NHL, IMO.

[Tank]

1 hour ago, Thomas Crow said:

1988 LA was not a big market.

Alan Thicke on before Gretzky got to the Kings, he would call the Forum and ask when the game started, and they'd say "What time can you get here?"

Jack Kent Cooke on the all the Canadians transplants in LA. "Now I know why they left Canada: They hate hockey!"

LA was indeed a small market team, but the hockey fans were always loyal. the issue was attracting new fans, more fans, to the game, and the presence of gretzky accomplished that.

i went to plenty of sold out games in the years before 99 arrived, but it's popular right now to suggest that kings games were as well attended as an intramural field hockey game at cal state san bernadino.

[Thomas]

They were typically near the bottom of the league in attendance though consistently prior to 1988. If it wasn't for the diehards they probably would have moved or folded. 

http://www.hockeydb.com/nhl-attendance/att_graph.php?tmi=6664

Weird to see that the Staples Center and the AEG ownership has seemingly had as big if not bigger affect on attendance than Gretzky did.

[Thomas]

1 hour ago, nate said:

Gretzky is the greatest scorer in the history of the NHL hands down.

Messier is definitely the most complete player in the history of the NHL, IMO.

In the list for sure, I'd put Howe and Orr on the top.