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Scioscia tenure


Erstad Grit

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Which, again, means that the new GM's every move will be scrutinized and run past Scioscia for his take on it. If you don't trust a man enough to allow him to make personnel decisions, don't hire him to be general manager.

 

Three years isn't enough to rebuild the train wreck that was the Angels' farm system when Dipoto arrived. Until that is done, and Dipoto had started the process, the Angels will continue to rely on the crap shoot of free agent signings to fill out the major league roster. The system will perpetuate itself.

 

If the GM is strong enough and convincing enough in his position, he should have no problem advising Arte of the proper course to take with regard to player selection, contracts, coaching, player development, and even the managerial position.  Arte is not that illogical.  There is no evidence that every move a GM makes in this organization is run by Scioscia for review that I am aware of, if so I would like to see that link.  Whoever get selected as the next GM will not be immune from some scrutiny from Arte or his associates.  He will report to Carpino or Arte, they are not going to totally let him go off on his own accord.  No boss does that, give him freedom to do certain things, define his role, don't micromanage, but they have to understand his philosophies and approve of them to some degree.  Too much of Arte's money is invested here.

 

We made some bad choices with regard to free agent signings, but all teams sign free agents to some degree.  The farm system suffers from non-optimal (read not in the top five or ten positions in the draft), poor draft choices, maybe poor front office people managing the process.  Dipoto changed out the people who are in charge of that process, particularly with the Scott Servais hire.  He was highly regarded in his skill set when it comes to player development.  He's been in  that position for three years we should start to see some improvement from his body of work soon.

Edited by tomsred
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That's not a fair comparison because of the league realignments and introduction of wildcard teams in the mid-1990's.

 

The West/Central/East divisions in their current form, as well as the ALDS and NLDS, didn't exist until 1994.  So it was MUCH harder to reach the playoffs.  Only two AL teams and two NL teams made the playoffs each year.

The AL West in 1993, for example, included the Angels, A's, Mariners, Rangers, Twins, White Sox, and Royals.  You had to beat 6 other teams to reach the playoffs. 

 

Adjust for those changes and MS teams still made the playoffs more times than everyone before him combined, 5 to 3.  The only time a former AL West team that finished with a better record than the Angels in a season the Angels won the AL West is 2005.  2002 is out because no WC.   2005 is out because no WC and the CWS won 99 games to the Angels 95.   But those 95 wins would have been more than any Angels division winner in those first 40 years.

Edited by Inside Pitch
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I understand the frustration with Scioscia. I question a lot of his moves and philosophy as well. 

 

However it's simply impossible to spin. 

 

Before Scioscia we were one of the worst franchises. 

 

During Scioscia's tenure our franchise has had an exponentially increase in success. 

 

I'm not saying Scioscia is the best choice for the future, but this current fan culture reminds mw how the fans $hit on GA, Vlad, Erstad, and Salmon at the ends of their tenures here.

 

Have some class and at least recognize the last 14 years have been pretty damn amazing considering what the previous 39 looked like. 

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Yes there is a correlation between the start of the Scioscia era, and the beginning of improvement, but that is mostly because the start of the Scioscia era happened to coincide with the end of the Autry era. 

 

After the Cowboy left us, Jackie Aurty was really cheap...

 

Disney was the second owner, and it didn't take a long time, or tons more money to get the team over the hump.

They were close so many times, but they couldn't quite get there.

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Yes there is a correlation between the start of the Scioscia era, and the beginning of improvement, but that is mostly because the start of the Scioscia era happened to coincide with the end of the Autry era. 

 

After the Cowboy left us, Jackie Aurty was really cheap...

 

Disney was the second owner, and it didn't take a long time, or tons more money to get the team over the hump.

They were close so many times, but they couldn't quite get there.

 

Actually Disney spent a lot of money. They massively upgraded the stadium. Mo Vaughn was MLB largest contract at the time. Aaron Sele was actually a fairly large contract at the time. Disney ownership won in 2002 not Moreno. 

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Disney was the second owner, and it didn't take a long time, or tons more money to get the team over the hump.

Where do we disagree? Maybe you misread my post, but we are in agreement. The fortunes of the team turned when Disney became the owner.
Disney ownership also coincided with Mike Scioscia becoming manager.

Edited by Homebrewer
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Disney was the second owner, and it didn't take a long time, or tons more money to get the team over the hump.

Where do we disagree? Maybe you misread my post, but we are in agreement. The fortunes of the team turned when Disney became the owner.

Disney ownership also coincided with Mike Scioscia becoming manager.

 

Because it did take them tons of money to get over the hump

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Yes there is a correlation between the start of the Scioscia era, and the beginning of improvement, but that is mostly because the start of the Scioscia era happened to coincide with the end of the Autry era. 

 

After the Cowboy left us, Jackie Aurty was really cheap...

 

Disney was the second owner, and it didn't take a long time, or tons more money to get the team over the hump.

They were close so many times, but they couldn't quite get there.

 

 

image6.jpg

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If the GM is strong enough and convincing enough in his position, he should have no problem advising Arte of the proper course to take with regard to player selection, contracts, coaching, player development, and even the managerial position.  Arte is not that illogical.

 

Whose side did Moreno take when there was a conflict between the manager and the GM?

 

Scioscia already has Moreno's ear, plus a contract that keeps him in place unless he decides on his own to opt out. No GM with any sense is going to take this job. We certainly won't get an experienced one who has had any success.

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Semantics aside, they were anywhere from 3-6 during Scioscia's most successful years under Moreno or in other words averaged top 5. You're just making my point, now that Moreno doesn't want to compete with the biggest spenders, Scioscia doesn't look as good because he doesn't have as many good players. 

 

wait, what? arte doesn't want to spend? your honor, i give exhibit A, a mr. josh hamilton who was signed to an insane contract with virtually no competition from other clubs.

 

remember that free agency is a two-way street. the team has to pursue who it wants, but those players also have to want to come here and play (see teixera, mark). it's not only a matter of offering the most money.

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Adjust for those changes and MS teams still made the playoffs more times than everyone before him combined, 5 to 3.  The only time a former AL West team that finished with a better record than the Angels in a season the Angels won the AL West is 2005.  2002 is out because no WC.   2005 is out because no WC and the CWS won 99 games to the Angels 95.   But those 95 wins would have been more than any Angels division winner in those first 40 years.

 

You're missing the point.  I was talking head-to-head odds assuming the entire division (old or new) is competitive.  The realignment and addition of the AL Central reduced the AL West to 4 teams meaning the Angels went from battling 6 other teams to 3 in order to win the AL West.  And with the addition of wildcards, winning the division isn't even necessary anymore. 

 

To compare anything Scioscia's teams have accomplished to pre-1994 teams is disingenuous at best. 

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Disney was the second owner, and it didn't take a long time, or tons more money to get the team over the hump.

Where do we disagree? Maybe you misread my post, but we are in agreement. The fortunes of the team turned when Disney became the owner.

Disney ownership also coincided with Mike Scioscia becoming manager.

I believe what got the Org over the top was when the farm and GM was under the control of Bill Bavasi. During his time in that position, he drafted the nucleus of the 2002 team. Salmon,Anderson Percival, Erstad, Glaus,Molina, Krod.    Bavasi was maybe the best farm director in the Org's history. Problem was that he was not a very good GM. But, his legacy after he left as GM/ Farm director was that he left Stoneman a lot of great pieces to work with to build a championship team.

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wait, what? arte doesn't want to spend? your honor, i give exhibit A, a mr. josh hamilton who was signed to an insane contract with virtually no competition from other clubs.

 

remember that free agency is a two-way street. the team has to pursue who it wants, but those players also have to want to come here and play (see teixera, mark). it's not only a matter of offering the most money.

 

There have been numerous articles and comments from the FO the last few years about how Moreno is reluctant to go over the luxury tax, this correlates to the Angels sliding down the list of highest payrolls around the league. You would think someone with aspirations of becoming the next GM would know this.

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There have been numerous articles and comments from the FO the last few years about how Moreno is reluctant to go over the luxury tax, this correlates to the Angels sliding down the list of highest payrolls around the league. You would think someone with aspirations of becoming the next GM would know this.

If Moreno is strictly unwilling to go over the luxury tax threshold, then his decision to spend every last cent of our payroll headroom on Josh Hamilton was all the more inexcusable.

Penalties are not so severe for going over just a year or two. If we have any hopes of winning with Trout still on the team we will need to break out some Brink's trucks this off season, then play some games to get under the tax threshold and reset the penalties in 2018.

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There have been numerous articles and comments from the FO the last few years about how Moreno is reluctant to go over the luxury tax, this correlates to the Angels sliding down the list of highest payrolls around the league. You would think someone with aspirations of becoming the next GM would know this.

Dipoto also said that for the right player they would go over the luxury tax.

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No he just doesn't want to sign the pal or of the month to a long term deal that puts him over. He would probably sign a star level player to put them over the tax.

I've always felt that Dipoto's biggest mistake was not getting a solid catcher that can both hit and call a good game. With so many pitchers that he pushed through the Angels turnstiles we could've used a solid Russell Martin or a Brian McCann. I believe it's the single most important position and both of those guys were made available during Dipoto's tenure. Both of these guys have some real pop outside of Coors Field.

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I've always felt that Dipoto's biggest mistake was not getting a solid catcher that can both hit and call a good game. With so many pitchers that he pushed through the Angels turnstiles we could've used a solid Russell Martin or a Brian McCann. I believe it's the single most important position and both of those guys were made available during Dipoto's tenure. Both of these guys have some real pop outside of Coors Field.

Yea I would love to have a guy like that but not at $75-80 million.

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No he just doesn't want to sign the flavor of the month to a long term deal that puts him over. He would probably sign a star level player to put them over the tax.

The closest thing we had to a flavor of the month signing was Josh Hamilton, who was signed to fill a position where we did not even have a need.  The majority of serious fans were strongly opposed to the deal at the time, and that signing was almost certainly personally directed by Arte. We need to sign players at positions of need, not necessarily players with name recognition / star power. 

 

The need for lefy power could have been handled by keeping Morales onboard. Scioscia unfortunaetly wasted Morales' talent as a switch hitter with excessive platooning -- Scoscia never allowed Morales to hit from the right side of the plate and was likely strongly influential in having him traded away to play better in SEA and later KC. 

Edited by ScottLux
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