Planned Parenthood Uses Partial-Birth Abortions to Sell Baby Parts

[Spirit]

But seriously:  when does a potential human being become an actual human being?  When it begins living outside the womb?  When it's capable of living outside the womb?

 

 

I think it's very clear where those are the pro life side stand.  For them it's at conception.  What about those of you on the pro choice side?  When does a potential human being become an actual human being? 

[nate]

In Trump's case the jury is still out.

[Spirit]

And in the case of an actual fetus/embryo? 

[Adam]

But seriously:  when does a potential human being become an actual human being?  When it begins living outside the womb?  When it's capable of living outside the womb?

 

 

I think it's very clear where those are the pro life side stand.  For them it's at conception.  What about those of you on the pro choice side?  When does a potential human being become an actual human being? 

 

When it doesn't become a nuisance. 

[Spirit]

Lock it. 

[Adam]

See, I think it's just a ridiculous way that conservatives get their chests puffed up "Abortion is murder!" but in all reality they have no answers for abortion. Just wanting to pass judgement, want to point that finger at people less holy than them.

 

I was raised pro-life at OC christian schools and churches. IMHO, the pro-life movement is a huge scam by politicians and pastors. The most pro-life person I knew growing up took his own life at 26.

 

Well that settles it I guess.

[mtangelsfan]

what do you mean by "no answer"?

[Spirit]

See, I think it's just a ridiculous way that conservatives get their chests puffed up "Abortion is murder!" but in all reality they have no answers for abortion. Just wanting to pass judgement, want to point that finger at people less holy than them.

 

I was raised pro-life at OC christian schools and churches. IMHO, the pro-life movement is a huge scam by politicians and pastors. The most pro-life person I knew growing up took his own life at 26.

 

I'm just grateful you're here to help us out with answers.  So maybe you can take a stab at mine.

 

When does a potential human being become an actual human being?  When it begins living outside the womb?  When it's capable of living outside the womb?

[Jay]

latest installment of the PP videos:

 

[the dude abides]

The genocide that I'm a part of is unspeakable.  

 

High five on that one... err... rather... forearm bash

[Hollyw00d]

BAN PLANNED PARENTHOOD

[InsideThePark]

I'm not going to get caught up in the terminology debate. There are no good, clear answers to those questions as I see it.

It's obvious that those who generally feel strongest in the pro-life camp are driven by their religious beliefs. They feel that God endows every soul at conception. Non believers think that religion as a whole is mythology, hence why they generally don't feel the same about this as well as other social issues. I hope no one takes the choice lightly. If they don't want a baby or aren't ready for it, I'd rather they go through with the pregnancy and ultimately make a difficult decision of giving the baby up for adoption, especially with newborns being in demand.

[Angelsjunky]

The genocide that I'm a part of is unspeakable.  

 

Quit reading Troutporn threads.

 

But seriously:  when does a potential human being become an actual human being?  When it begins living outside the womb?  When it's capable of living outside the womb?

 

 

I think it's very clear where those are the pro life side stand.  For them it's at conception.  What about those of you on the pro choice side?  When does a potential human being become an actual human being? 

 

I think the problem is that we don't know. Clearly it is sometime between conception and birth, but I don't feel comfortable offering a definitive answer because I don't know (and, in my opinion, neither does mtangelsfan, even if he thinks he does).

 

This is why I was arguing for the "process perspective" - because I see it as a spectrum, not black-and-white. Look at a rainbow - we know when blue is blue and red is red, but between the two are so many different shades of red, purple, and blue. Life is complex and simple (black-and-white) answers don't solve that, they just over-simplify things.

[Spirit]

 

I think the problem is that we don't know. Clearly it is sometime between conception and birth, but I don't feel comfortable offering a definitive answer because I don't know (and, in my opinion, neither does mtangelsfan, even if he thinks he does).

 

This is why I was arguing for the "process perspective" - because I see it as a spectrum, not black-and-white. Look at a rainbow - we know when blue is blue and red is red, but between the two are so many different shades of red, purple, and blue. Life is complex and simple (black-and-white) answers don't solve that, they just over-simplify things.

 

But we make judgements on the lives of unborn babies all the time.  A drunk driver hits and kills a pregnant mother and her unborn child, that's a double murder charge.  Why?  If that baby/embryo/fetus is still "in the process," why the double charge?  

 

You may not know where the line is for yourself as it relates to this question.  Or, maybe you just don't want to throw out an answer because you know there will be follow-up questions that will present additional conundrums.  (BTW ... "conundrum."  Great word!)  You may not like MT's answer, but he has one.  I have family and friends that are staunchly convinced that live begins at birth.  Period.  You may not like their answer either, but they have one.

 

Of course life is not always black-and-white.  There are many shades of gray.  Sometimes as many as fifty of them.  But there are also certain areas of life that are quite black-and-white.  Murder is wrong.  Rape is wrong.  Helping someone out when you know there is zero chance that they'll ever be able to pay you back is right.  

[Hollyw00d]

I prefer unplanned parenthood, like god intended

[Angelsjunky]

But Geoff, what is not black-and-white is where is the line. Black-and-white answers are easy. Rock-solid certainty is easy. What is harder, and more truthful in my opinion, is being open to uncertainty.

 

I have a sense of where the line is for myself as far as abortion goes. But I'm not absolutely certain of it. It is my best guess based upon a combination of available information and intuition. That's the point - I don't go around shouting "murder!" nor do I go around shouting "stop trying to control women's bodies!" Why? Because we're all trying to figure this stuff out, and to claim certainty about such an issue is just another form of ignorance.

[mtangelsfan]

and yet you are certain that it should be the woman's right to choose. Doesn't that make you ignorant?

[Angelsjunky]

Where did I say that, mtangelsfan?

[mtangelsfan]

So correct me then. You aren't certain that it should be a woman's right to choose? Most folks who are pro choice are pretty dang certain.

Also, since we are talking about taking lives, shouldn't we do our best to quantify what the line would be?

ITP says for folks like me it is about religion. I guess in a sense that is correct because I believe that God is the giver of all life and that human life is sacred. However I think my stand on this issue can stand strong apart from my beliefs.

[Angelsjunky]

No, I'm not certain. But I think abortion should be legal for a variety of reasons and with certain limitations.

 

Interestingly enough, this is the first time in this thread that I've heard you mention God in relation to your views on abortion - you've been thumping the science books .

 

By the way, I also believe that human life is sacred.

[mtangelsfan]

yes, in response ti itp's post. Like I said though, I can make a strong argument without the religious aspect to it.

[Tank]

saw a meme once that fits in with the direction this thread has turned. looked for it but couldn't find it. it said essentially that why is it easy for people to accept that two cells colliding randomly in space is life, but a sperm and an egg uniting isn't?

 

yes, i know it's tilted towards one perspective. thought it was an interesting observation.

[InsideThePark]

ITP says for folks like me it is about religion. I guess in a sense that is correct because I believe that God is the giver of all life and that human life is sacred. However I think my stand on this issue can stand strong apart from my beliefs.

I agree. To your point, not every atheist is pro-choice. Having said that, I believe it is your faith that makes you more passionate about this issue, it's partly what separates your viewpoint from others here. And that's fine, I'm sure everyone can attest to the fact that your foundation as a person is solid. If faith has anything to do with it, that's great.

[Jason]

saw a meme once that fits in with the direction this thread has turned. looked for it but couldn't find it. it said essentially that why is it easy for people to accept that two cells colliding randomly in space is life, but a sperm and an egg uniting isn't?

 

yes, i know it's tilted towards one perspective. thought it was an interesting observation.

[nate]

 

saw a meme once that fits in with the direction this thread has turned. looked for it but couldn't find it. it said essentially that why is it easy for people to accept that two cells colliding randomly in space is life, but a sperm and an egg uniting isn't?

 

yes, i know it's tilted towards one perspective. thought it was an interesting observation.

 

 

This is stupid for so many reasons.

 

For one thing, every time you use hand sanitizer you are killing millions of bacteria cells.