Can we trust Bill Stoneman as GM?

[Jay]

"Stoneman said Klentak will handle much of the trade talks and day-to-day operations of the club until he can get up to speed.

I’m going to want to know what they’re talking about, and when we get a chance to sit down, we’ll figure out how communications will get done,” Stoneman said. “We’ll see where it goes. There are good people there, guys I know and trust. We’ll get all of that taken care of.”

http://www.latimes.com/sports/sportsnow/la-sp-sn-bill-stoneman-angels-interim-general-manager-20150702-story.html

Sounds to me like the one who will be wheelin' and dealin' is Klentak, so what's the fuss all about?

 

I'm sure we can trust Klentak because Dipoto

[DMVol]

Bill Stoneman was a very successful GM for 8 years...I respect that....but he doesn't make July trades, period...if he's truly calling the shots, it's like Gene Hackman in Hooisers--"That's my team on the floor". You're better off accepting it and not spending time worrying about which bat we're going to trade for....

[tomsred]

This debate goes on every year about how much July trades really help.  Last year there was a pretty strong article that they seldom work out as far as helping is concerned.  That doesn't mean you shouldn't try, but making a trade is only a small part of the battle.  Actually finding someone who can make a difference without damaging your club is the bigger issue.

[tomsred]

I'm sure we can trust Klentak because Dipoto

 

It would be funny if Klentak traded Scioscia for a left fielder.  Then Arte fired Klentak, and appointed Mikey Hatcher as the interim assistant GM.  Rosenthal would sell his children for that story.

[seenoevil]

Sosh is the real GM for this team.

 unfortunately yes

[Second Base]

This debate goes on every year about how much July trades really help.  Last year there was a pretty strong article that they seldom work out as far as helping is concerned.  That doesn't mean you shouldn't try, but making a trade is only a small part of the battle.  Actually finding someone who can make a difference without damaging your club is the bigger issue.

 

I agree with that, but contending teams rarely ever have the sort of glaring need the Angels do right now.  I think everyone can agree that on a daily basis in August and September, having guys like Adam Lind and Ben Revere in LF and DH would likely result in a lot more runs and thus probably a few more wins than Matt Joyce. 

[tomsred]

I agree with that, but contending teams rarely ever have the sort of glaring need the Angels do right now.  I think everyone can agree that on a daily basis in August and September, having guys like Adam Lind and Ben Revere in LF and DH would likely result in a lot more runs and thus probably a few more wins than Matt Joyce. 

 

.....if we don't give up anything of consequence.  There are also other teams who would like Lind, I don't know if that holds true for Revere.  We aren't the only buyers in town.  Klentak should be able to figure it out.

Edited July 9, 2015 by tomsred

[VariousCrap]

considering Stoneman hired Sosh, I find that idea silly.

 

 

 

That was then.  This is now.

[VariousCrap]

Why?

 

 

Because he didn't like it or didn't agree with it.

[Second Base]

.....if we don't give up anything of consequence.  There are also other teams who would like Lind, I don't know if that holds true for Revere.  We aren't the only buyers in town.  Klentak should be able to figure it out.

 

Well, the Angels definitely have enough pitching depth to be able to trade a lot of solid pitching prospects and still have what figures to be an amazing future staff.  

 

Cliff notes version: They'll likely keep Richards, Skaggs and maybe Santiago for long run (3-5 years).  They'll want to protect top of the line pitching prospects like Heaney, Newcomb, Tropeano and Ellis.

 

So noteworthy pitchers available to be traded should include C.J. Wilson, Matt Shoemaker, Nate Smith, Victor Alcantara, Tyler DeLoach, Jeremy Rhoades and Joe Gatto.

 

With that group of arms, plus the plethora or RP prospects in the system, the Angels should have little trouble affording the price it takes to acquire the needed bats and still maintain a bright present and future.  I just hope the Angels don't fall into what was Stoneman's MO and waste agolden opportunity like this.  Jery built this pitching depth for a reason.  It's time to use it. 

[Docwaukee]

A GM is only as good as their general philosophy and the information they have at their disposal.  

 

My biggest concern about losing Dipoto is more about a shift in philosophy.  Will we stay committed to analytics?  Will the information be used appropriately?  Will concern for such lead to a mass exodus of quality front office talent.  

 

No GM acts alone, but usually they make the final decision on whether to pull the trigger on a deal.  Arte has muddied that decision making process or so it seems.  

 

Frankly, the decision making process that dipoto would have used is likely still in play.  

 

Hopefully, this was more of a one vs. one personality conflict.  A conflict that was more about this guy versus that guy and had very little effect on the net result of how things actually happened.  

 

So if Stoneman is the interim, then he's effectively no different than Dipoto for this short period.   If they go out and get someone who has a totally different philosophy that is more 'old school', then that would totally suck.  

 

It would also suck if Scioscia is controlling the roster and has veto power on personnel moves.  With the right person it could be fairly collaborative and that is the best we can hope for with MS around because no GM is going to control the team as they should.  

 

Another thing to consider is all out mutiny.  I would hope it would never happen, but does someone like Servais become somewhat cavalier with his input knowing that he's out of there in short order.  

 

So to me, it's not so much about whether we can trust stoneman, but can we trust the others around him?  

[Blarg]

Resume is all about what you accomplished. I have no worries that everyone in the front office is working towards making theirs show unflinching dedication and quality of work product.

[Second Base]

A GM is only as good as their general philosophy and the information they have at their disposal.  

 

My biggest concern about losing Dipoto is more about a shift in philosophy.  Will we stay committed to analytics?  Will the information be used appropriately?  Will concern for such lead to a mass exodus of quality front office talent.  

 

No GM acts alone, but usually they make the final decision on whether to pull the trigger on a deal.  Arte has muddied that decision making process or so it seems.  

 

Frankly, the decision making process that dipoto would have used is likely still in play.  

 

Hopefully, this was more of a one vs. one personality conflict.  A conflict that was more about this guy versus that guy and had very little effect on the net result of how things actually happened.  

 

So if Stoneman is the interim, then he's effectively no different than Dipoto for this short period.   If they go out and get someone who has a totally different philosophy that is more 'old school', then that would totally suck.  

 

It would also suck if Scioscia is controlling the roster and has veto power on personnel moves.  With the right person it could be fairly collaborative and that is the best we can hope for with MS around because no GM is going to control the team as they should.  

 

Another thing to consider is all out mutiny.  I would hope it would never happen, but does someone like Servais become somewhat cavalier with his input knowing that he's out of there in short order.  

 

So to me, it's not so much about whether we can trust stoneman, but can we trust the others around him?  

 

I think that's why the Angels should've gone to Klentak or Servais.  This would've told the front office and minor league system that they still have a job come next season because this administration is still in "power".  Bringing in Stoneman makes it seem like the Angels will be going outside the organization again this winter to find a GM and when they do find that GM, all these guys will be out of a job. 

 

Most of the personnel need not worthy though.  Either Dipoto and/or Klentak will end up being a GM next year and thus these employees should be able to find work. 

[Guest]

This debate goes on every year about how much July trades really help.  Last year there was a pretty strong article that they seldom work out as far as helping is concerned.  That doesn't mean you shouldn't try, but making a trade is only a small part of the battle.  Actually finding someone who can make a difference without damaging your club is the bigger issue.

[Blarg]

Scotty, they brought in Stoneman to put a kabosh on front office conflict with Scioscia. He is just a placeholder for one of the two in house candidates (I think they've already decided) to take over when the season ends but for now all of the needs of the role is being carried out by committee while Stoneman sits in the chair. Mike is not going to start any shit with Bill, and Bill is not going to tell Mike how to do his job. It's called detente.

 

Also when it comes to any trade scenarios, Stoneman will garner more respect at the negotiating table as the GMs involved know he has Moreno's full confidence. You would not be able to say that with Servais or Klentak at this point. 

[SoWhat]

Stoneman has already said that Klentak will handle the majority of trade talks.

[Second Base]

That's just it Eric, my biggest concern is that Stoneman is at the trade talk table at all. You'd be hard pressed to find a GM alive that's worse than Bill Stoneman when it comes to trades. He failed to pull the trigger on some of the biggest in history and the ones he did make at the deadline were inconsequential.

I think right now, we should all hope that Klentak is the one actually making decisions.

[tomsred]

I'm not so sure that Klentak should be the guy making all the decisions here.  He's a 32 year old economics major from Dartmouth, who started out as an intern with the Rockies in 2003, and then worked in the commissioner's office advising league GM's and club President's on rules and ways of saving money in their operations.  Yeah, he's had time with the Orioles and Angels front offices, and he works hard and makes a good impression.  There is also this from a Fall 2013 Marcia Smith (OC Register) interview:

 

"I wouldn't consider myself a metrics guy but I think balance is important," said the affable Klentak, sitting on his office's small sofa beneath a window that overlooks the Angel Stadium parking lot.

 

You can take that as good or bad for our situation I suppose.  I think I would prefer the 71 year old experienced guy looks over his shoulder some, and asks the right questions at the least.  I'm having a hard time trying to understand why Arte Moreno should turn over the baseball operations of a billion dollar baseball enterprise to someone with this amount of experience, and limited track record.  Maybe I would feel differently if I heard his baseball philosophies, and what he felt his strengths and weaknesses were for conducting baseball operations for the Angels.  Reflecting on this, I guess I know far too little about him.  Maybe you can tell us why he is such a great baseball guy Scotty? 

[Docwaukee]

That's just it Eric, my biggest concern is that Stoneman is at the trade talk table at all. You'd be hard pressed to find a GM alive that's worse than Bill Stoneman when it comes to trades. He failed to pull the trigger on some of the biggest in history and the ones he did make at the deadline were inconsequential.

I think right now, we should all hope that Klentak is the one actually making decisions.

 

you act as if he was some solo act ignoring all of his analysts and the constantly blinking lines lighting up with trade proposals.  

 

and you are also making quite the assumption that he's got ultimate veto power over any trade.  

 

the same set of staff that dipoto had is doing their thing.  Stoneman is there to advise.  The people he has now are much different than those who were around him previously.  

 

Different evaluators with different metric and reports.  

 

I am not worried about stoneman.  I am more worried about what happens after the year is over and beyond.  

[Jeff Fletcher]

As I said on my podcast, which I'm sure you all listened to, after talking to Stoneman I don't believe his history as a GM will be relevant at all to what he's going to do now.

He admitted that he hasn't been really in the loop, so he's going to defer to Klentak, Servais, Scioscia on most issues since they've been doing the work.

If they come to him and say "we think this trade makes sense" I find It hard to believe that he's going to say no based on his limited experience with the current prospects, trade talks, etc.

Also, if you all are so sure that Scioscia is calling the shots, you don't need to worry about hoarding prospects at the expense of this year's team. Managers generally don't care about prospects.

Remember when Scioscia said last week that he's been told "no" a lot by the GM? I'm pretty sure most of those are when Scioscia wants to acquire someone and the GM says the prospect cost is too high.

[DMVol]

As I said on my podcast, which I'm sure you all listened to, after talking to Stoneman I don't believe his history as a GM will be relevant at all to what he's going to do now.

He admitted that he hasn't been really in the loop, so he's going to defer to Klentak, Servais, Scioscia on most issues since they've been doing the work.

If they come to him and say "we think this trade makes sense" I find It hard to believe that he's going to say no based on his limited experience with the current prospects, trade talks, etc.

Also, if you all are so sure that Scioscia is calling the shots, you don't need to worry about hoarding prospects at the expense of this year's team. Managers generally don't care about prospects.

Remember when Scioscia said last week that he's been told "no" a lot by the GM? I'm pretty sure most of those are when Scioscia wants to acquire someone and the GM says the prospect cost is too high.

I don't buy that Jeff....We talk about "sample size" a lot on here....8 years as a GM (with a lot of success) is about as significant a sample size as you'll find....And the reality was Bill Stoneman just didn't do deadline deals of any consequence....period....if he truly is the final voice in trade discussions, regardless of who lays the groundwork, we aren't making a Huston Street type of trade....he isn't changing a philosophy he obviously believes strongly in just because a 32 year old whiz kid says "this makes sense"....I find it hard to believe he was made interim GM just to do what the young DiPoto guys tell him he should....he was named interim GM to make decisions he believes in until Nov...he'll certainly listen and process but at the end of the day, he obviously doesn't like deadline deals....Will gladly admit I'm wrong if we have a new bat in the lineup on August 1st (or sooner)...We'll see... Edited July 9, 2015 by DMVol

[Inside Pitch]

I'm not so sure that Klentak should be the guy making all the decisions here.  He's a 32 year old economics major from Dartmouth, who started out as an intern with the Rockies in 2003, and then worked in the commissioner's office advising league GM's and club President's on rules and ways of saving money in their operations.  Yeah, he's had time with the Orioles and Angels front offices, and he works hard and makes a good impression.  There is also this from a Fall 2013 Marcia Smith (OC Register) interview:

 

"I wouldn't consider myself a metrics guy but I think balance is important," said the affable Klentak, sitting on his office's small sofa beneath a window that overlooks the Angel Stadium parking lot.

 

You can take that as good or bad for our situation I suppose.  I think I would prefer the 71 year old experienced guy looks over his shoulder some, and asks the right questions at the least.  I'm having a hard time trying to understand why Arte Moreno should turn over the baseball operations of a billion dollar baseball enterprise to someone with this amount of experience, and limited track record.  Maybe I would feel differently if I heard his baseball philosophies, and what he felt his strengths and weaknesses were for conducting baseball operations for the Angels.  Reflecting on this, I guess I know far too little about him.  Maybe you can tell us why he is such a great baseball guy Scotty? 

 

You realize you are basically describing a young Bill Stoneman...  Right?   

People have this idea that Bill Stoneman is this antiquated GM with nary an idea of how to integrate numbers...  The dude was a finance guy.  Math was his life post baseball and numbers were an integral part of his chosen profession.  The fact that he took that education and combined it with his first career shouldn't be lost on people.  He's openly admitted to not being up to speed on the newest metrics -- but do you really expect a guy with a degree in finance to struggle with or scoff at metrics?

 

More importantly -- Bill Stoneman's greatest attribute while he was GM of the Angels was his willingness to trust the people he surrounded himself with.   As I mentioned previously, he is the guy that hand picked Dave Dombrowski, Jim Beattie, and Dan Duquette to GM the Expos...   His ability to spot ability in others may be the single most important thing he brings to the process currently.

 

If Klentak has the goods, I trust Stoneman to see it and be willing to hand him the reigns...

Edited July 9, 2015 by Inside Pitch

[Inside Pitch]

I don't buy that Jeff....We talk about "sample size" a lot on here....8 years as a GM (with a lot of success) is about as significant a sample size as you'll find....And the reality was Bill Stoneman just didn't do deadline deals of any consequence....period....if he truly is the final voice in trade discussions, regardless of who lays the groundwork, we aren't making a Huston Street type of trade....he isn't changing a philosophy he obviously believes strongly in just because a 32 year old whiz kid says "this makes sense"....I find it hard to believe he was made interim GM just to do what the young DiPoto guys tell him he should....he was named interim GM to make decisions he believes in until Nov...he'll certainly listen and process but at the end of the day, he obviously doesn't like deadline deals....Will gladly admit I'm wrong if we have a new bat in the lineup on August 1st (or sooner)...We'll see...

 

Do you even remember some of the deadline deals people wanted?   You know..  like Alfonseca for Krod and others?   People were all over him for refusing to trade off a kid in AA ball for a "proven closer".   

 

His lack of trades at the deadline wasn't a bad thing, in most cases he simply believed the better player was already in the system.   I'd sooner fault him for failing to make offseason trades that would have helped the team long term than refusal to do rentals.  That's a legit criticism albeit mostly because of the one super-trade that didn't happen.

 

Everyone talks about his failure to make the trade for Cabrera while at the same time completely forgetting how he passed on trading for Tejada, a guy that Arte Moreno was openly fond of....   That non-trade was a pure win.

 

But yeah -- he's a pawn now...  

Edited July 9, 2015 by Inside Pitch

[ten ocho recon scout]

@DMvol, im not sure, but in reference to what stoneman is here for "looking over the shoulder", maybe its just more of an experienced guy for legal matters in terms of contracts? As instead of having someone with mo experience in that take over, maybe hes just here (for now) to oversee legal matters. (Really hazve no idea)

As far as the mcab trade IP mentioned, wasnt it also reported it was the marlins backing out after the deal was already in place?

I dont know what to expect from stoneman this go around, but i think IP is right, he was pretty good at finding under the radar talent. Guillen for river/izturis was gold

[DMVol]

Do you even remember some of the deadline deals people wanted? You know.. like Alfonseca for Krod and others? People were all over him for refusing to trade off a kid in AA ball for a "proven closer".

His lack of trades at the deadline wasn't a bad thing, in most cases he simply believed the better player was already in the system. I'd sooner fault him for failing to make offseason trades that would have helped the team long term than refusal to do rentals. That's a legit criticism albeit mostly because of the one super-trade that didn't happen.

Everyone talks about his failure to make the trade for Cabrera while at the same time completely forgetting how he passed on trading for Tejada, a guy that Arte Moreno was openly fond of.... That non-trade was a pure win.

But yeah -- he's a pawn now...

Where did I say it was good or bad? I was merely stating what I think is pretty likely---Stoneman won't do a significant deadline deal....those who are hoping for a deal, however it may turn out, are setting themselves up for disappointment...that's all... Edited July 9, 2015 by DMVol