Catcher Framing: 2015 Leaders

[NrM]

The most straightforward stat for judging the effectiveness of a catcher as a pitch framer is K/BB for the respective pitchers caught.

 

2014 K/BB with Iannetta / Conger:

 

Weaver:  2.32 / 2.96

Wilson:  1.57 / 2.13

Richards: 2.48 / 5.91

Shoemaker: 4.19 / 7.13

Santiago: 1.41 / 2.69

 

 

2015 K/BB with Iannetta / Perez:

 

Weaver: 11.0 / 2.91  <-- Iannetta's cERA is actaully worse in this case

Wilson:  2.52 / 3.42

Richards: 2.30 / 2.47

Shoemaker: 3.59 / 5.00

Santiago: 2.13 / 6.67

 

Not sure if this proves anything.

Just looking at Hector Santiago in the month of June/July

 

Carlos Perez

June 3: 5 IP 5 ER 

June 6(relief): 3.2 IP 0 ER 

June 12: 5.2 IP 2 ER 

 

Chris Iannetta

June 17: 5 IP 3 ER 

June 22: 6 IP 1 ER 

June 28: 7 IP 1 ER

July 4: 7 IP 0 ER

 

Carlos Perez seems to have done a lot better with CJ Wilson. I'll give you that.

 

Chris Iannetta has been the catcher for both of Heaney's starts.

Edited July 7, 2015 by Poozy

[Blarg]

I've watched a lot of Halo games this year. It is impossible that CI is a top 5 anything catcher. 

 

Pitchfx doesn't watch games, it only records results.

[Blarg]

The most straightforward stat for judging the effectiveness of a catcher as a pitch framer is K/BB for the respective pitchers caught.

 

2014 K/BB with Iannetta / Conger:

 

Weaver:  2.32 / 2.96

Wilson:  1.57 / 2.13

Richards: 2.48 / 5.91

Shoemaker: 4.19 / 7.13

Santiago: 1.41 / 2.69

 

 

2015 K/BB with Iannetta / Perez:

 

Weaver: 11.0 / 2.91  <-- Iannetta's cERA is actaully worse in this case

Wilson:  2.52 / 3.42

Richards: 2.30 / 2.47

Shoemaker: 3.59 / 5.00

Santiago: 2.13 / 6.67

 

According to the article the way is to measure how many balls inside and outside the zone are called strikes, not the amount of data that would be out of the catchers control like how many walks or strikeouts a pitcher throws along with ERA. A batter swinging changes all of the possibilities while a called strike is entirely upon the umpires perception of where the ball crossed the plate combined with where/how the catcher receives it.

[Erstad Grit]

Pitchfx doesn't watch games, it only records results.

 

Exactly. As a Jr College / High School umpire I admit there are so many factors besides the catcher that factor in this.

 

When a catcher sets up outside and the pitcher misses badly on the inside corner I would probably call that a ball. The catcher lunging over just makes it look like a ball to everyone. Pitchfx would conclude the catcher badly framed that pitch correct? 

 

A batter can convince me to call a ball a strike. Pretty often a batter will actually bend down on a low pitch and I'll get fooled in calling it a strike. The catcher should not get credit for that.

 

This just seems like an impossible talent (framing pitches) to measure. 

[ELEVEN]

Exactly. As a Jr College / High School umpire I admit there are so many factors besides the catcher that factor in this.

When a catcher sets up outside and the pitcher misses badly on the inside corner I would probably call that a ball. The catcher lunging over just makes it look like a ball to everyone. Pitchfx would conclude the catcher badly framed that pitch correct?

A batter can convince me to call a ball a strike. Pretty often a batter will actually bend down on a low pitch and I'll get fooled in calling it a strike. The catcher should not get credit for that.

This just seems like an impossible talent (framing pitches) to measure.

The part about the hitter bending is true. I stole a lot of walks that way when I played back in the Paleozoic Era.

[Blarg]

Exactly. As a Jr College / High School umpire I admit there are so many factors besides the catcher that factor in this.

 

When a catcher sets up outside and the pitcher misses badly on the inside corner I would probably call that a ball. The catcher lunging over just makes it look like a ball to everyone. Pitchfx would conclude the catcher badly framed that pitch correct? 

 

A batter can convince me to call a ball a strike. Pretty often a batter will actually bend down on a low pitch and I'll get fooled in calling it a strike. The catcher should not get credit for that.

 

This just seems like an impossible talent (framing pitches) to measure. 

 

Sound like you stink as an umpire.

[Erstad Grit]

Sound like you stink as an umpire.

 

Lol OK.

 

When a catcher is set up outside and dives to even catch the ball which grazes the inside corner call a strike and see what happens. 

[Erstad Grit]

The part about the hitter bending is true. I stole a lot of walks that way when I played back in the Paleozoic Era.

 

Re-read what I said. A batter can convince me to call a ball a strike, not the other way around. 

[ELEVEN]

Lol OK.

When a catcher is set up outside and dives to even catch the ball which grazes the inside corner call a strike and see what happens.

Day drinking parents wake from their stupors?

[ettin]

Exactly. As a Jr College / High School umpire I admit there are so many factors besides the catcher that factor in this.

 

When a catcher sets up outside and the pitcher misses badly on the inside corner I would probably call that a ball. The catcher lunging over just makes it look like a ball to everyone. Pitchfx would conclude the catcher badly framed that pitch correct? 

 

A batter can convince me to call a ball a strike. Pretty often a batter will actually bend down on a low pitch and I'll get fooled in calling it a strike. The catcher should not get credit for that.

 

This just seems like an impossible talent (framing pitches) to measure. 

 

Actually it is pretty easily measurable with modern technology.

 

The normal strike zone that you see on TV (Angels broadcast) can be measured as a point off the ground.

 

Say as an example the strike zone is 2 ft wide by 2 ft tall. Also say that the bottom of the strike zone is two feet off the ground, making the top of the strike zone 4 feet off the ground. You can also say that the left side of the zone is 1 foot away from the left side batter's box and the same for the right hand side.

 

Once you establish the coordinate system you can measure each pitch as a distance inside or outside of that zone.

 

What you are looking for is any pitch that is 2 inches or less from any edge of the strike zone (as an example) whether it is inside the zone or outside the zone. The reason I say 2 inches (and this is an arbitrary number picked by me) is because you are looking for the "close" calls where it could be called a strike or a ball.

 

You then take each of those pitches and determine if they were actually called balls or strikes.

 

A good pitch framing catcher will convert more of these borderline calls into called strikes than the average.

 

This is why pitch framing is so recently in the news. Previously there wasn't enough data (balls and strikes) to accurately determine which catchers are framing better than the others.

 

Once baseball analysts had enough seasons of data (a LOT of pitches) they were able to determine what the average catcher gets for called strikes and then determine which catchers were doing better and worse than the average.

[Ray McKigney]

The part about the hitter bending is true. I stole a lot of walks that way when I played back in the Paleozoic Era.

 

Reminds me of Chef's parents on South Park. "Well, it was about that time that I noticed that girl scout was about eight storeys tall and was a crustacean from the Paleozoic era." Tree fiddy.

[ten ocho recon scout]

Tree fiddy...lol, forgot about that

[disarcina]

top five in framing pitches for the team's staff

 

1. YADIER

2. YADIER

3. YADIER

4, YADIER

5. BUSTER

[Lou]

LOL. This is awesome

all i've read here is how CI sucks at framing and Conger was a master

at it. Now that CI is ranked so high, these rankings are bullsh*t

i love AW

[Guest]

LOL. This is awesome

all i've read here is how CI sucks at framing and Conger was a master

at it. Now that CI is ranked so high, these rankings are bullsh*t

i love AW

Still not as bad as defensive WAR. 

 

In 2012 Trout was considered the best defensive player [qualified] in baseball by both Baseball Reference and Fangraphs.

 

At the All Star Break in 2013, Baseball reference considered Trout average and Fangraphs actually considered him the worst defensive player in baseball. 

Edited July 8, 2015 by ScottLux

[Inside Pitch]

This list is really suspect. Grandal and Iannetta have been both recognized widely as extremely low end defensive and receiving catchers. Grandal specifically has had SP request to pitch to the "other" catcher. 

I'm all for new statistics and measuring tools, and this will sound extremely old school, but just watch the games and no one would ever consider CI a top receiving catcher. 

 

There is nothing suspect about it -- players can and do improve their games.  Pitch framing is something that's become more relevant since the advent of pitchfx.   When I asked Mark Marquess of Stanford if it was something they were working on at the college level he said that as much as they would love to, they lack the data to grade out the framing.  He states that while they do work at positioning and their placement, the eye test does little to help in this case because there is greater variance in how the strike zone is called at the collegiate level. 

 

That's not as ridiculous as the meme among some saber folks that lineup protection makes no difference. Supposedly a batter will be pitched at the same regardless of whether Mike Trout is on deck behind him, or CJ Wilson is on deck behind him. 

 

Lineup protection like the myth of the clutch hitter are things the saber community fought way too hard at it -- in some ways the two theories are connected.   Both arguments are built on the idea that players will perform to their established levels of performance regardless of the variables.

[Inside Pitch]

Exactly. As a Jr College / High School umpire I admit there are so many factors besides the catcher that factor in this.

 

When a catcher sets up outside and the pitcher misses badly on the inside corner I would probably call that a ball. The catcher lunging over just makes it look like a ball to everyone. Pitchfx would conclude the catcher badly framed that pitch correct? 

 

A batter can convince me to call a ball a strike. Pretty often a batter will actually bend down on a low pitch and I'll get fooled in calling it a strike. The catcher should not get credit for that.

 

This just seems like an impossible talent (framing pitches) to measure. 

 

So your umpiring is based on subjective information, not a strike zone that should be constant.   That's why pitchfx has led to the pitch framing "revolution" and why the head coach at one of college's most successful programs just shrugs his shoulders

[Inside Pitch]

LOL. This is awesome

all i've read here is how CI sucks at framing and Conger was a master

at it. Now that CI is ranked so high, these rankings are bullsh*t

i love AW

The best part is the data is collected from the same exact source -- Statcorner.

[arch stanton]

I don't understand why anyone wouldn't believe that a proud professional would work to improve himself if he was presented evidence that he has a glaring weakness.

[eaterfan]

That's not as ridiculous as the meme among some saber folks that lineup protection makes no difference. Supposedly a batter will be pitched at the same regardless of whether Mike Trout is on deck behind him, or CJ Wilson is on deck behind him.

What's ridiculous is your misunderstanding of " the myth of lineup protection not existing".

It isn't that a player will be pitched the same with Mike Trout behind him as with CJ Wilson behind him. It's that a player will be as productive either way. He will get walked more batting in front of Wilson and hit more in front of Trout. But while a player is walking more they are driving in slightly fewer runs but scoring slightly more. When a player is hitting more they are creating more outs driving in more runs but scoring fewer. Either way you are taking from Peter to pay Paul.

But in reality most sabermetrically inclined people don't believe everything holds true when people are batting in front of a pitcher and it makes individuals seem more productive than their actual talent level suggests.

[Inside Pitch]

What's ridiculous is your misunderstanding of " the myth of lineup protection not existing".

It isn't that a player will be pitched the same with Mike Trout behind him as with CJ Wilson behind him. It's that a player will be as productive either way. He will get walked more batting in front of Wilson and hit more in front of Trout. But while a player is walking more they are driving in slightly fewer runs but scoring slightly more. When a player is hitting more they are creating more outs driving in more runs but scoring fewer. Either way you are taking from Peter to pay Paul.

But in reality most sabermetrically inclined people don't believe everything holds true when people are batting in front of a pitcher and it makes individuals seem more productive than their actual talent level suggests.

 

 

I think you nailed it -- whats more, I think the psuedo saber types are more inclined to argue what's a clutch hitter and lineup protection than the people deep into it.

[Angel Oracle]

Since May 10

Iannetta: .261/.384/.391 .775 OPS

 

You're thinking of Carlos Perez

Since June 5

.167/.182/.185 .367 OPS

 

wait even Mathis wasn't that bad.

I do stand corrected.   That April hitting was really crappy for CI.

[ELEVEN]

Grandal used to be crap at framing pitches until a couple of years ago. Good way to improve your stock.

[Michifan]

I'm really not much of a saber metrics person. But here's what I do see.

• Iannetta has a terrible throwing arm. Even if it gets to second base, his throw is not likely to be where the second baseman or shortstop needs it to be in order to tag out the runner. 
• Iannetta is not great at catching the ball and is prone to passed balls or wild pitches getting by him.
• It's not true that he has improved since May 10. He was bad in April, better in May, poor in June, and good so far in July.
  • April hits-5, average-.093, and OBP-.206. 
  • May hits-14, average-.264, and OBP-.328. 
  • June hits-8, average-.190, and OBP-.327. 
  • OBP and average by months last year, .403 and .250 4/14, .386 and .286 in 5/14, and .311 and .244 in June. Thus, Iannetta's best month this year is more on par with his worst in the first three months of last year. It just looks good compared to his other bad months.

Now, if he stays really hot in July, that might help. Looking at the rest of his season, though, it might be a few good days in a row, as he had in June. I hope for the best.

[NrM]

Since May 10

Iannetta: .261/.384/.391 .775 OPS

 

You're thinking of Carlos Perez

Since June 5

.167/.182/.185 .367 OPS

 

wait even Mathis wasn't that bad.

 

Update 

 

Iannetta since may 10

.261/.381/.452 .833 OPS 

 

Perez since June 5

.149/.174/.164 .338 OPS  

Edited July 22, 2015 by Poozy