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Founding Fathers: We are not a Christian Nation


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It's easy to cherry pick quotes out of context (like the Adams one) and fool people. How about the fact that states had official religions and religious tests for office? Where did that come from?

What about that the most powerful movement at the time was the Great Awakening?

This is like the Bible discussions.Unless you really know what you're talking about,you shouldn't argue anything.

"Yeah, but Jefferson siad there's a wall and he didn't like the New Testament."

You have to see the whole forest.

Edited by Juan Savage
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none of my Christian friends claim it is

 

Yes, but as InsidethePark says, many conservatives think otherwise. Juan Savage presumably thinks otherwise. So this is a real issue, even though clearly not all Christians believe that the US is a Christian nation.

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I think it is safe to say that many of the principles that the DOI and US constitution are Christian and that a huge majority of the founders were Christians.

 

I don't think that makes this or any other nation "Christian" though.  Individuals are Christians, entities not so much.

 

Yes, agreed. I think the point of the article, though, is to point out that despite whatever the beliefs of the Founding Fathers, they wanted this to be a nation that accepted and embraced all religions, or non-religious people, or different variations of religious experience and belief.

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Yes, but as InsidethePark says, many conservatives think otherwise. Juan Savage presumably thinks otherwise. So this is a real issue, even though clearly not all Christians believe that the US is a Christian nation.

You've used "many" and "most" Christians.

Who are these people?

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this is a non-issue really.  Even if I were to yield to the premise that "most" Christians want this to be a Christian nation it would change nothing.  By definition Christians want others to be Christians because that is what we are commanded to do.

 

However this is not by force.  So what we end up with instead is that group of people want the country to be guided by the principles they believe in.  Which is what liberals, conservatives, socialists, facists and everyone else wants.

 

Strawman be gone.

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You've used "many" and "most" Christians.

Who are these people?

 

I used "many" conservatives - and to that, just look at the political arena. I did not say "most" Christians in the quote you posted. I did say "not all."

 

this is a non-issue really.  Even if I were to yield to the premise that "most" Christians want this to be a Christian nation it would change nothing.  By definition Christians want others to be Christians because that is what we are commanded to do.

 

However this is not by force.  So what we end up with instead is that group of people want the country to be guided by the principles they believe in.  Which is what liberals, conservatives, socialists, facists and everyone else wants.

 

Strawman be gone.

 

There's a difference here that you seem to be missing. When I want the country to be guided by the principles I believe in, that guidance doesn't in any way prohibit you from living a life according to Christian principles - what is true for you. This is why I agree with you that a Church that opposes gay marriage shouldn't have to marry gay people. Yet the same is not true if Christian ideology dictates policy - it asks that all live a life according to Christian principles and beliefs.

 

Now not all Christians take this approach, but certainly we don't have to go far to see this in the political arena - such as opposition of gay marriage. That is a clear, recent example of Christians trying to force their ideology onto others.

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Regardless of whether the majority of the founders were Christian, more people call themselves Christian here and actually go to church than in many other countries. The churches are emptying out all over Europe, and millions of people are abandoning their Christian faith, or even religion altogether.

Atheism is gaining ground rapidly.

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Yes and no. Christianity is growing by leaps and bounds in Korea, China, and all of Africa. The places that are becoming more secular are actually shrinking in importance and percentage of population and the growing grouos of those areas are religious.

It's more proper to say that atheistic societies are dying.

Regardless of whether the majority of the founders were Christian, more people call themselves Christian here and actually go to church than in many other countries. The churches are emptying out all over Europe, and millions of people are abandoning their Christian faith, or even religion altogether.

Atheism is gaining ground rapidly.

Edited by Juan Savage
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The US wasn't an officially Christian nation (if I remember the Adams quote was a diplomatic gesture not a societal observation),but it was a very religious place in both leadership and population. It was that very religious population that created and grew the nation.

Who says so? All of the atheists and leftists who exult at overthrowing that order.

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many of the founding fathers were religious people (ben franklin not so much, and jefferson wrote his own version of the new testament that left out the miracles of Jesus because he didn't think much of them) and they drew from that in writing the constitution, but they did not specifically intend for us to be of one mind religiously. the pilgrims, otoh, or more accurately the puritans in new england, having fled their homelands because of religious intolerance, established their own communities here that were extremely intolerant of people who didn't want to follow their religious beliefs. it was reasonably common for them to expel people from their community who would not follow their religious beliefs.

 

we are a nation that has millions of Christians, but we are not specifically governed by religious principals. the immoral actions of congress and the president have established this over several years. the constant and blatant lying and dishonesty violate the ten commandments daily.

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I used "many" conservatives - and to that, just look at the political arena. I did not say "most" Christians in the quote you posted. I did say "not all."

 

 

There's a difference here that you seem to be missing. When I want the country to be guided by the principles I believe in, that guidance doesn't in any way prohibit you from living a life according to Christian principles - what is true for you. This is why I agree with you that a Church that opposes gay marriage shouldn't have to marry gay people. Yet the same is not true if Christian ideology dictates policy - it asks that all live a life according to Christian principles and beliefs.

 

Now not all Christians take this approach, but certainly we don't have to go far to see this in the political arena - such as opposition of gay marriage. That is a clear, recent example of Christians trying to force their ideology onto others.

that is simply not true, your worldview, which is socialist, certainly affects my pocketbook.  This also takes money away from the charities I would like to give to. Also, if your view is so benevolent why did the cake makers get sued because they didn't want to bake a cake for something their religion tells them not to be a part of?

 

Every worldview wants to subject every other worldview

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Free exercise of religion means that you can actually act on your beliefs, like voting and doing business.

Establishment merely means that there won't be a church of England or another official religion as was the common practice in Europe. They did this because different states had their own official religions. These are facts.

But who cares about the Constitution? It's just whoever is sitting on the bench at the time.

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http://www.britannica.com/topic/The-Founding-Fathers-Deism-and-Christianity-1272214

 

 

"Depending on the extent to which Americans of Christian background were influenced by Deism, their religious beliefs would fall into three categories: non-Christian Deism, Christian Deism, and orthodox Christianity."

 

"Although orthodox Christians participated at every stage of the new republic, Deism influenced a majority of the Founders. The movement opposed barriers to moral improvement and to social justice. It stood for rational inquiry, for skepticism about dogma and mystery, and for religious toleration. Many of its adherents advocated universal education, freedom of the press, and separation of church and state. If the nation owes much to the Judeo-Christian tradition, it is also indebted to Deism, a movement of reason and equality that influenced the Founding Fathers to embrace liberal political ideals remarkable for their time."

 

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The US wasn't an officially Christian nation (if I remember the Adams quote was a diplomatic gesture not a societal observation),but it was a very religious place in both leadership and population. It was that very religious population that created and grew the nation.

Who says so? All of the atheists and leftists who exult at overthrowing that order.

Lol, that's where you're wrong. I've never heard an atheist say anything close to that. Atheists are the ones who write the type of articles that AJ linked. They'll often argue that the primary leaders of our founding fathers were not mainly Christians, but rather, deists (although that's debatable). Take Jefferson for an example. He wrote most of the DOI and he was known for his critical takes on religion. If it wasn't for him and the others in the minority, there very well could have been Bible Scriptures and mentions of Jesus in both the DOI and the Constitution. There are mentions of God but there isn't anything about the Christian God.

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