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Knowing what we know now


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were we too hard on Tony Phillips? Back then we were raised to believe that people were responsible for their actions, but now that we know addicts aren't to be blamed and it is perfectly acceptable to blame others, including your boss, should the Angels have welcomed Phillips back that season? He was actually performing at a high level as well. What do you guys think?

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Seems like a not-so-subtle way of taking a dig at people who don't drink the "Hamilton is Satan, Arte is God" koolaid.

 

Come on, Stradling, it isn't either/or. Hamilton should be held accountable for his actions, but so should Arte. Both are responsible for the travesty that is Hamilton's career as an Angel.

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Back then we were raised to believe that people were responsible for their actions, but now that we know addicts aren't to be blamed and it is perfectly acceptable to blame others,

 

 

At some point, you're gonna have to pay the troll toll with all these threads, Strad.

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Knowing that we would totally collapsed with him going down.....hell ya we were too tough on him.

were we too hard on Tony Phillips? Back then we were raised to believe that people were responsible for their actions, but now that we know addicts aren't to be blamed and it is perfectly acceptable to blame others, including your boss, should the Angels have welcomed Phillips back that season? He was actually performing at a high level as well. What do you guys think?

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Phillips performed as an Angel. Hamilton didnt.

Seems like a not-so-subtle way of taking a dig at people who don't drink the "Hamilton is Satan, Arte is God" koolaid.

Come on, Stradling, it isn't either/or. Hamilton should be held accountable for his actions, but so should Arte. Both are responsible for the travesty that is Hamilton's career as an Angel.

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1997 was an up and down year anyway.

Started off so-so, then a 10 game winning streak in July, and finally a September slump not helped by Phillips' suspension.

That September slump saw Jason Dickson miss it after pitching solidly as a rookie until getting hurt in August.

But conversely, iirc, Ken Hill pitched out of his mind having a sub 2.00 ERA in September.   Too bad he never remotely put up those numbers again. 

Edited by Angel Oracle
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No. He paid $20 million less. Hamilton took a $14 million dollar hit voluntarily. How is that not being accountable?

He still paid...its not like he refused to pay what was laid out in the contract.  Hamilton wanted to go to Texas and, to do that, he had to accept a pay cut.  This was agreed on by both sides.  Arte was and still is accountable for the contract.  Which, again, is all he needs to be accountable for in this case.

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1997 was an up and down year anyway.

Started off so-so, then a 10 game winning streak in July, and finally a September slump not helped by Phillips' suspension.

That September slump saw Jason Dickson miss it after pitching solidly as a rookie until getting hurt in August.

But conversely, iirc, Ken Hill pitched out of his mind having a sub 2.00 ERA in September.   Too bad he never remotely put up those numbers again. 

 

You just mentioned two of the casualties of Terry "the Butcher" Collins.   His misuse of Dickson was almost criminal as was his usage of Ken Hill following elbow surgery.  

 

Ken Hill actually got off to an amazing start in 98, he had a low 3's era through his first or second start of May, when he seemed to come up lame after a throw.  He noticeabley cut short his motion and seemed to struggle to extend his arm on his follow through for a few pitches.  Collins went to the mound and could be seen to be saying, "can you stay in the ****ing game?"  Hill did.  His next start he was short arming everything, failed to get out of the second inning and allowed 8 runs while throwing 60 pitches.   Five days later Collins had him stay in the game long enough to throw 148 pitches.. even as his velocity massively declined as the game wore on..   I will never forget him responding to the questions about having left him in the game to throw that many pitches by saying he Hill was very rested after his short outing earlier that week.  He really believed that BS.   

 

Hill's velocity continued to dip after that game, his forkball lost his bite, and he was effectively done.  A guy who has posted a combined ERA+ over 120 the previous 5 seasons combined, became an 87 ERA+ pitcher for the remainder of his career.

 

Edited by Inside Pitch
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Seems like a not-so-subtle way of taking a dig at people who don't drink the "Hamilton is Satan, Arte is God" koolaid.

 

Come on, Stradling, it isn't either/or. Hamilton should be held accountable for his actions, but so should Arte. Both are responsible for the travesty that is Hamilton's career as an Angel.

 

I don't think at any point Arte drove Hamilton to a strip joint.

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Seems like a not-so-subtle way of taking a dig at people who don't drink the "Hamilton is Satan, Arte is God" koolaid.

Come on, Stradling, it isn't either/or. Hamilton should be held accountable for his actions, but so should Arte. Both are responsible for the travesty that is Hamilton's career as an Angel.

AJ I have said multiple times that Arte and the Angels handled it wrong. However after Hamilton didn't take responsibility during his press conference, I think he's a heap.

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how is Arte in any way responsible for Hamiltons relapse and lack of performance?

We signed him in good faith, he never showed up, thats on him.

Arte made the effort for the team, ill never fault him for that or hold him accountable for another mans choices.

Whether or not we should have made th signing is one thing, but everything that happened after that is another

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No. He paid $20 million less. Hamilton took a $14 million dollar hit voluntarily. How is that not being accountable?

 

Someone can correct me if I'm wrong.  But I don't think that Hamilton is taking the $14 million dollar hit.  

 

That decrease was the difference between California collecting their share of tax, and Texas not collecting income tax.  

 

In the end, Hamilton will take home the same amount.

Edited by gotbeer
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You just mentioned two of the casualties of Terry "the Butcher" Collins.   His misuse of Dickson was almost criminal as was his usage of Ken Hill following elbow surgery.  

 

Ken Hill actually got off to an amazing start in 98, he had a low 3's era through his first or second start of May, when he seemed to come up lame after a throw.  He noticeabley cut short his motion and seemed to struggle to extend his arm on his follow through for a few pitches.  Collins went to the mound and could be seen to be saying, "can you stay in the ****ing game?"  Hill did.  His next start he was short arming everything, failed to get out of the second inning and allowed 8 runs while throwing 60 pitches.   Five days later Collins had him stay in the game long enough to throw 148 pitches.. even as his velocity massively declined as the game wore on..   I will never forget him responding to the questions about having left him in the game to throw that many pitches by saying he Hill was very rested after his short outing earlier that week.  He really believed that BS.   

 

Hill's velocity continued to dip after that game, his forkball lost his bite, and he was effectively done.  A guy who has posted a combined ERA+ over 120 the previous 5 seasons combined, became an 87 ERA+ pitcher for the remainder of his career.

 

For the Mets sake, I hope that Collins treats Harvey and DeGrom with kid gloves.

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Someone can correct me if I'm wrong.  But I don't think that Hamilton is taking the $14 million dollar hit.  

 

That decrease was the difference between California collecting their share of tax, and Texas not collecting income tax.  

 

In the end, Hamilton will take home the same amount.

Both are true. Hamilton takes home the same amount, and Arte Moreno doesn't have to pay as much because he's not paying the high CA taxes.

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"Come on, Stradling, it isn't either/or. Hamilton should be held accountable for his actions, but so should Arte."

 

Arte paid what was owed Hamilton per the contract...How has Arte not been held accountable?

 

 

AJ I have said multiple times that Arte and the Angels handled it wrong. However after Hamilton didn't take responsibility during his press conference, I think he's a heap.

 

 

how is Arte in any way responsible for Hamiltons relapse and lack of performance? We signed him in good faith, he never showed up, thats on him. Arte made the effort for the team, ill never fault him for that or hold him accountable for another mans choices. Whether or not we should have made th signing is one thing, but everything that happened after that is another

 

What I mean by Arte being accountable is hurting the team by making poor decisions, e.g. Hamilton but also Pujols. Who cares if he made the effort? If he traded Sean Newcomb for Ryan Howard would you applaud him for "Making the effort?"

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