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They better get it right this time.....


Inside Pitch

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http://m.angels.mlb.com/news/article/105686208/after-missing-out-on-hall-of-fame-bobby-grich-finds-supporters

 

After missing out on Hall, Grich finds supporters As Erstad, Percival fall off ballot, former Angels infielder gets new look with statistical advances

The Expansion Era Committee re-considers players whose main contributions came after 1970. Grich wasn't on the ballot in 2010 or 2013, but will have another chance in 2016.

 

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I've been ranting about this since before we met...   Grich is about as perfect a candidate as the Angels have had -- easily one of the best players at his position in MLB history and a SoCal guy...

He was a great player...but I think you're exaggerating here.

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He was a great player...but I think you're exaggerating here.

 

No, you're just ignorant of his place in baseball history.   Using JAWs for instance he ranks 7th among 2B -- his career war is higher than the average for the 19 2B already in the HOF..   His greatest sin was having been a player who could play outstanding defense, hit for power, and get on base in an era where people were in love with batting averages.

 

Craig Biggio can't hold Grich's jock -- but he (Biggio), managed to hang around forever and compiled... So he's in the HOF.  There were people talking about how it was an outrage he wasn't a first ballot HOFer and yet Biggio was a negative defender based on the metrics, and posted a career OPS+ of 112.   Grich?  125 OPS+   Roberto Alomar was supposed to have been this fantastical defensive 2B...  and a great bat --  His OPS+ 116... His dWar for his career is 2.9..  Grich? 16.2.

 

Seriously, if not for people's love affair with batting average..  Grich would have already been in the HOF.

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I agree that Grich should be in the Hall of Fame, but not need to bash other deserving Hall of Famers like Biggio and Alomar.

 

As for Grich's worthiness, this list says it all:

 

Career fWAR for Second Basemen (Hall of Famers in bold)

1. Hornsby 130.3

2. Collins 120.5

3. Lajoie 102.2

4. Morgan 98.8

5. Gehringer 78.6

6. Frisch 74.8

7. Carew 72.3

8. Grich 69.2

9. Whitaker 68.1

10. Biggio 65.1

11. Alomar 63.9

12. McPhee 62.7

13. Randolph 62.0

14. Sandberg 60.9

15. Gordon 60.6

16. Utley 59.2 (active)

17. Robinson 57.2

18. Kent 56.4

19. Herman 55.0

20. Doerr 53.3

 

Whitaker is equally deserving, in my opinion - and I think you can make a case for Randolph and Kent. But regardless, it is pretty clear that both Grich and Whitaker should be in. I'm hoping that Whitaker and Trammell are voted in by the Veteran's Committee together.

 

Utley will be an interesting case. He was so great for about five years, from 2005-09 when he compiled 37.3 fWAR, but since then has been merely good, 20 fWAR over the next five years. Chances are he can accumulate a few more fWAR and reach 65-70 and squeak in.

Edited by Angelsjunky
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then sweet lou deserves to get in as well.  

 

WAR by 2b:

Grich is 8th all time with only Whitaker (7th) and Randolph (13th) as the others in the top 20 who are Hall eligible and not in.  

 

Damn right he does...    Lou Whitaker and Grich were overshadowed by Joe Morgan in the NL but they were both pretty stellar players.

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I agree that Grich should be in the Hall of Fame, but not need to bash other deserving Hall of Famers like Biggio and Alomar.

 

:snip

 

Whitaker is equally deserving, in my opinion - and I think you can make a case for Randolph and Kent. But regardless, it is pretty clear that both Grich and Whitaker should be in. I'm hoping that Whitaker and Trammell are voted in by the Veteran's Committee together.

 

Utley will be an interesting case. He was so great for about five years, from 2005-09 when he compiled 37.3 fWAR, but since then has been merely good, 20 fWAR over the next five years. Chances are he can accumulate a few more fWAR and reach 65-70 and squeak in.

 

Since when is correctly pointing out that Alomar and Biggio were lesser players "bashing?"   Biggio is a classic compiler.  Truth is both Biggio and Alomar were done as elite players by age 33, Alomar's fall off was pretty steep too.   Grich posted an OPS+ of 120 from age 33 on while the others failed to even be league average players offensively  

 

I stand by my statement -- Biggio deserved to be a HOFer and yet he couldn't hold Grich's jock -- that's not so much a slight of Biggio as it is a testament to how good and undervalued Grich was.   

 

Agreed on Sweet Lou..   Utley IMO is another guy that will be undervalued/appreciated.  He's been a better player than Biggio, but it's doubtful his health will allow him to hang around for 7 or 8 years as a league average or worse hitter in order to pile up the counting stats.

Edited by Inside Pitch
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Damn right he does...    Lou Whitaker and Grich were overshadowed by Joe Morgan in the NL but they were both pretty stellar players.

 

Hmm...Morgan peaked in the mid-70s and was pretty much done as a great player by 1978. Grich was very good in the 70s but had his best years in the early 80s. Whitaker was even younger - his peak in the 80s and eary 90s.

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Since when is correctly pointing out that Alomar and Biggio were lesser players "bashing?"   Biggio is a classic compiler.  Truth is both Biggio and Alomar were done as elite players by age 33, Alomar's fall off was pretty steep too.   Grich posted an OPS+ of 120 from age 33 on while the others failed to even be league average players offensively  

 

I stand by my statement -- Biggio deserved to be a HOFer and yet he couldn't hold Grich's jock -- that's not so much a slight of Biggio as it is a testament to how good and undervalued Grich was.   

 

"Couldn't hold Grich's jock" implies that Grich was much better and he wasn't. Better, maybe, but not much better. Here are all of their seasons of 3+ fWAR ranked in order (3 fWAR being what could be called a "good year"):

 

9.3 Biggio 1997

7.8 Grich 1973

6.8 Grich 1974

6.8 Grich 1975

6.5 Biggio 1998

6.2 Biggio 1995

5.7 Grich 1975

5.6 Grich 1979

5.4 Grich 1972

5.3 Grich 1981

4.9 Biggio 1999

4.8 Biggio 1996

4.7 Biggio 1993

4.4 Grich 1980

4.4 Biggio 1994

4.3 Grich 1982

4.2 Grich 1983

3.9 Biggio 1992

3.5 Biggio 1991

3.4 Grich 1985

3.1 Biggio 1990

3.0 Grich 1978

 

They're about tied with 6+ WAR seasons, with Biggio having the best year overall and them both having three of the top six. After that Grich looks better in the 5+ range, with seven of ten, but then Biggio catches up a bit.

 

Grich probably has the edge in terms of peak years, but it isn't as drastic as your phrasing implies.

Edited by Angelsjunky
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Hmm...Morgan peaked in the mid-70s and was pretty much done as a great player by 1978. Grich was very good in the 70s but had his best years in the early 80s. Whitaker was even younger - his peak in the 80s and eary 90s.

 

Yeah?  Having been alive during the time, I can tell you Morgan was still considered an elite player, it's not like players don't live off their reputations even after they fall off.  

 

Also you're vastly overstating things....  You say he was done as a great player by 1978..   From 1979, until he retired Joe Morgan posted an OPS+ of 116.   Grich was out of baseball by 1986, Whitaker did come along later but by then Joe Morgan has become THE standard at 2B for many people...  So it was easy for Lou Whitaker and his career 117 OPS+ (Remember age 35-40 Joe Morgan was at 116), to be overshadowed by the memory of Morgan.

Edited by Inside Pitch
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"Couldn't hold Grich's jock" implies that Grich was much better and he wasn't. Better, maybe, but not much better. Here are all of their seasons of 3+ fWAR ranked in order (3 fWAR being what could be called a "good year"):

 

 

Jiminy Christmas...

 

Compiler much?    Criag Biggio managed 4284 more plate appearances than Grich -- the equivalent of nearly 6 and half more seasons than Bobby Grich (at Grich's average of 663 PAs), and yet he finished 4 WAR behind him.   Thats not a minor difference.

 

 

Yeah - Grich was a lot better than Biggio.  But please feel free to massage the facts as you see fit to try to close the gap. 

Edited by Inside Pitch
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I'm not sure what we're arguing, Inside Pitch. I agree with you that Grich is deserving, but am saying so is Whitaker. But now we're arguing fine-points...not exactly sure why.

 

And yeah, Joe Morgan was not a great player from 1978 on - a good one, yes, but not a great one. That's not over-stating.

And of course I agree that Joe Morgan is the standard for second basemen. From 1972-77 he was as good as any second baseman in the history of the game, at least since Hornsby's hey-day in the '20s. But I think you're clarifying what I was saying - that it is the memory of Joe Morgan, not the actuality. It doesn't change the fact that Whitaker was the best 2B of the 80s according to fWAR. Even if we limit it only to the first half (as Morgan retired after 1984), Morgan's still 4th among 2B behind Grich, Whitaker, and Randolph. Overshadowed, sure, but in the same way someone like Anthony Rizzo is currently overshadowed by Albert Pujols. Rizzo is a better player now, just as Whitaker and Grich were better players than Morgan in the '80s.

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Wow, Inside Pitch, you clearly have an axe to grind. What's your deal? Are you Bobby Grich? LOL.

 

 

Seriously?  I'm not the one with his panties in a bunch over a non-slight so you can stop trying to paint me as being biased...   Should I take a page out of your book, avoid actually discussing the facts and just openly question if you're Biggio's wife?    Save the snark man, I've not gone that route.

 

 

And yeah, Joe Morgan was not a great player from 1978 on - a good one, yes, but not a great one. That's not over-stating.

 

So -- Age 35-40 Joe Morgan posts an OPS+ of 116, compiles 17.7 fWAR over that span (11th best total in the NL) while also playing good defense and he was merely "good"  Meanwhile, Craig Biggio's career OPS+ including his peak seasons was 112 and he carries a negative dWAR..   Would you say that when looking at the bulk of Biggio's career he was merely "good"?   Maybe I need to up my standards when it comes to HOFers.

 

Tell me again how I shouldn't bash other players while trying to talk up Grich...  Or perhaps you could just consider how hypocritical you've been throughout this exchange.

Edited by Inside Pitch
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Grich played in 86. He was done by 87.

I knew Grich was good. Never knew he was that good until this thread

Yeah? Having been alive during the time, I can tell you Morgan was still considered an elite player, it's not like players don't live off their reputations even after they fall off.

Also you're vastly overstating things.... You say he was done as a great player by 1978.. From 1979, until he retired Joe Morgan posted an OPS+ of 116. Grich was out of baseball by 1986, Whitaker did come along later but by then Joe Morgan has become THE standard at 2B for many people... So it was easy for Lou Whitaker and his career 117 OPS+ (Remember age 35-40 Joe Morgan was at 116), to be overshadowed by the memory of Morgan.

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