Angels going after Zobrist and Shields

[NachoPop]

I honestly can't believe fans would trade 4 inepensive years of Santiago, a proven above average MLB starter, and 5 inexpensive years of C.J. Cron, the future fixture in the middle of the Angels lineup, all for one year of Ben Zobrist.

That's how teams end up like the Yankees, an aged roster with an ever-climbing payroll and no help on the way.

This x1000. Then people complain there's no depth and no money, all so they dont have to take a risk on some younger players. I honestly can't wait to see the competition for a job during spring training

[Angels_Make_Me_Drink]

I don't know how I feel about Cron being a "future fixture in the middle of the Angels' lineup." 

 

He needs to prove himself before we talk about him being a MOTO bat. He has the talent but he looked utterly lost at times last year. 

[ettin]

I honestly can't believe fans would trade 4 inexpensive years of Santiago, a proven above average MLB starter, and 5 inexpensive years of C.J. Cron, the future fixture in the middle of the Angels lineup, all for one year of Ben Zobrist.

 

That's how teams end up like the Yankees, an aged roster with an ever-climbing payroll and no help on the way. 

 

Scotty I think that is probably a stretch.

 

The Angels certainly appear to lack faith in Cron's ability otherwise you think they would have made him the primary DH this upcoming season instead of trading for Joyce. There's no doubt C.J. has good power and there is nothing, so far, that shows he can't hit both LHP and RHP reasonably well.

 

However the Angels have shown a real penchant for putting high OBP hitters into the lineup and so far Cron is definitely not that type of hitter. His value to our team this season is fairly negligible based on his projected playing time in 2015 right at this moment.

 

I don't disagree that he has cost control and years of service but if he is in a backup role like he is now he doesn't provide a lot of value.

 

Now are the Angels just giving him more development time? Maybe. Possibly.

 

If the Angels could take a starter in Santiago who may not have a rotation spot to start the year or be placed in the bullpen and pair him with a power hitter who won't see much playing time and turn them into Ben Zobrist, I think you consider it if it can add a 3.5-5 WAR player to your team (replacing the, at best, 2.5 WAR between Santiago and Cron).

 

These are all hypotheticals but Zobrist can take a walk and avoids strikeouts. He definitely would be an impact player even at his increasing age.

 

The bottom line is that if you don't have open positions to maximize your players potentials (in this case Santiago and Cron) you should move them in trade to acquire a piece you do need. As much as I hated to see Peter Bourjos leave, he didn't have a CF position to play anymore. Same thing here. Take the "spare" parts and acquire a needed part.

 

As a final note I like both players, in particular Santiago. He has some wicked movement on his pitches including his changeup and screwball. There is definitely potential in his arm.

Edited January 5, 2015 by ettin

[disarcina]

I see Cron as trade bait and Santiago as well depending on the status of Heaney and J. Alvarez.

 

As for Cron -- who would you rate higher?  Efren Navarro or Cron -- I think Navarro has the edge defensively and hits for a better average. Cron can rip line drives and has power but is weak on D at 1B at a time when we have a build up of DH guys like Hamilton and Pujols. We really need a 1B who can play D so I think Navarro gets the edge. If we sign Beckham, he can also play both corners including 1B in a pinch.

 

We need some help at 2B -- and probably someone who can be a one / two year stop gap.

 

Zobrist seems to fit the bill -- he was good at one time.

 

News on Beckham? If Angels sign him then we have a possible platoon with Beckham and Rutledge.

 

Expect Grant Green to take a lot of infield practice during ST.

[Guest]

Zobrist is a guy I want, as far as Shields, I am indifferent about. He certainly makes the top of the rotation better and could be slotted in at the #3. What I won't be able to handle is reading AO post his "Not Big Game" James nonsense after he gives up a first inning run in his first game of the year.

James Shields is not Worthy

[NachoPop]

...

The bottom line is that if you don't have open positions to maximize your players potentials (in this case Santiago and Cron) you should move them in trade to acquire a piece you do need. As much as I hated to see Peter Bourjos leave, he didn't have a CF position to play anymore. Same thing here. Take the "spare" parts and acquire a needed part.

...

They way i see it is there are multiple positions for Santiago. If he doesnt stick as a SP (which i hope he does), then he can fit in as a needed lefty reliever or long relief. Could still get a lot of work limiting innings for Heaney and Tropeano, or even Richards whenever hes coming back.

Edited January 5, 2015 by NachoPop

[ELEVEN]

So press conference Wednesday at noon?

I'm having lunch at Taco Bell tomorrow. I'll see what I can find out.

[Angelsjunky]

Shyt's gettin' real in this thread.

 

On what planet is Zobrist "overrated"? He has flown under the radar for years now and has averaged 5 WAR a season.

 

I agree tdawg87, although he's the classic type of player that is underrated by the masses, overrated by statnerds due to defense-inflated WAR. Like Josh Donaldson. Don't get me wrong, Zobrist is an excellent player I just don't know if he's quite as excellent as his WAR would have it.

 

 

I honestly can't believe fans would trade 4 inexpensive years of Santiago, a proven above average MLB starter, and 5 inexpensive years of C.J. Cron, the future fixture in the middle of the Angels lineup, all for one year of Ben Zobrist.

 

That's how teams end up like the Yankees, an aged roster with an ever-climbing payroll and no help on the way. 

 

I hear what you are saying but, like some others have said, think you might be over-valuing Santiago and especially Cron. At this point I really question Cron's upside. Best case scenario and he's still a run-of-the-mill 1B/DH type with bad defense, maybe hitting .270/.800 with 25-30 HR - essentially another Trumbo with perhaps a bit higher average but less power. OK, that's pretty good but hardly the stuff of legend, especially factoring in his poor defense. Plus, that's best case scenario. He could also be another Russell Branyan.

 

As for Santiago, he is a useful player. But again, Zobrist is excellent and would add a few wins all by himself.

 

Scotty I think that is probably a stretch.

 

The Angels certainly appear to lack faith in Cron's ability otherwise you think they would have made him the primary DH this upcoming season instead of trading for Joyce. There's no doubt C.J. has good power and there is nothing, so far, that shows he can't hit both LHP and RHP reasonably well.

 

However the Angels have shown a real penchant for putting high OBP hitters into the lineup and so far Cron is definitely not that type of hitter. His value to our team this season is fairly negligible based on his projected playing time in 2015 right at this moment.

 

I don't disagree that he has cost control and years of service but if he is in a backup role like he is now he doesn't provide a lot of value.

 

Now are the Angels just giving him more development time? Maybe. Possibly.

 

If the Angels could take a starter in Santiago who may not have a rotation spot to start the year or be placed in the bullpen and pair him with a power hitter who won't see much playing time and turn them into Ben Zobrist, I think you consider it if it can add a 3.5-5 WAR player to your team (replacing the, at best, 2.5 WAR between Santiago and Cron).

 

These are all hypotheticals but Zobrist can take a walk and avoids strikeouts. He definitely would be an impact player even at his increasing age.

 

The bottom line is that if you don't have open positions to maximize your players potentials (in this case Santiago and Cron) you should move them in trade to acquire a piece you do need. As much as I hated to see Peter Bourjos leave, he didn't have a CF position to play anymore. Same thing here. Take the "spare" parts and acquire a needed part.

 

As a final note I like both players, in particular Santiago. He has some wicked movement on his pitches including his changeup and screwball. There is definitely potential in his arm.

 

Good post and I agree with the majority of it but wanted to question the part in bold. If anything, I think this has been a franchise weakness, with the Angels generally employing good average but poor plate discipline hitters. Here's the team going back five years in AL OBP and Walk ranks (out of 15 teams):

 

2014: 4th, 8th

2013: 3rd, 8th

2012: 4th, 12th

2011: 11th, 11th

2010: 13th, 12th

 

As you can see, the walks went from poor to solid, but still not great. The OBP has been pretty good, but that's mainly due to BA. But I just don't see the Angels putting high OBP hitters in the lineup, except for a couple (Trout, Iannetta) and instead mainly just having a bunch of guys that are in the average to above average range. When I think "high OBP" I think at least .350 (in this reduced offensive era), and the Angels only had two players above .350.

[NrM]

Shyt's gettin' real in this thread.

I agree tdawg87, although he's the classic type of player that is underrated by the masses, overrated by statnerds due to defense-inflated WAR. Like Josh Donaldson. Don't get me wrong, Zobrist is an excellent player I just don't know if he's quite as excellent as his WAR would have it.

I hear what you are saying but, like some others have said, think you might be over-valuing Santiago and especially Cron. At this point I really question Cron's upside. Best case scenario and he's still a run-of-the-mill 1B/DH type with bad defense, maybe hitting .270/.800 with 25-30 HR - essentially another Trumbo with perhaps a bit higher average but less power. OK, that's pretty good but hardly the stuff of legend, especially factoring in his poor defense. Plus, that's best case scenario. He could also be another Russell Branyan.

As for Santiago, he is a useful player. But again, Zobrist is excellent and would add a few wins all by himself.

Good post and I agree with the majority of it but wanted to question the part in bold. If anything, I think this has been a franchise weakness, with the Angels generally employing good average but poor plate discipline hitters. Here's the team going back five years in AL OBP and Walk ranks (out of 15 teams):

2014: 4th, 8th

2013: 3rd, 8th

2012: 4th, 12th

2011: 11th, 11th

2010: 13th, 12th

As you can see, the walks went from poor to solid, but still not great. The OBP has been pretty good, but that's mainly due to BA. But I just don't see the Angels putting high OBP hitters in the lineup, except for a couple (Trout, Iannetta) and instead mainly just having a bunch of guys that are in the average to above average range. When I think "high OBP" I think at least .350 (in this reduced offensive era), and the Angels only had two players above .350.

Going from 12th to 8th in as little as 2-3 years since dipoto took over seems like good results to me.

Above average obp is probably .335-350

Edited January 5, 2015 by Poozy

[CanadianHalo]

@JonHeymanCBS: not a shocker here, but while the marlins like james shields, it doesnt sound like theyd be in at $110M/5 level

As if it's getting that high for Shields...

I can see how Shields is appealing due to the credit he was getting for helping develop some of the younger guys in KC but there isn't any amount of mentoring that's worth 110 million

And there's this... @JesseSanchezMLB: Teenager Vlad Guerrero Jr. won't be able to sign until July 2 but sources say Angels, Mets & Blue Jays have already shown serious interest.

Not sure if posted and wasn't starting a thread for it

Edited January 5, 2015 by CanadianHalo

[Adam]

Those guys will suck without Madden

[eaterfan]

The Angels are limited to $250k free agents the next two years because of Baldoquin, right. I think that starts in July. Bye bye Vlad Jr.

[Angelsjunky]

Going from 12th to 8th in as little as 2-3 years since dipoto took over seems like good results to me.

Above average obp is probably .335-350

 

True, it is good progress. As for what is average, let's look at the AL average (I'm not counting NL because it is skewed due to the pitchers hitting):

 

2014: .316

2013: .320

2012: .320

2011: .323

2010: .327

2009: .336

 

2009 was the last year of the "Roid Era," which I would say went from 1993-2009, the period in which stats were greatly inflated about historical norms; by comparison, the AL OBP was .328 in 1992 and jumped to .337 in 1993 and then was above .330 until 2010. It peaked in 1996 at .350, with a second peak in 2000 at .349. The highest since 1901 was 1936 when it was .363, the lowest was .295 in 1904 and then .297 in 1968.

 

Anyhow, the point is that league offense vs. defense fluctuates over time. Historically speaking I think you could say that above .330 is weighted towards offense and below .320 or so weighted towards pitching - but of course OBP is just one factor and you'd really have to look at OPS at least.

 

Anyhow, if we take into account that the league average includes scrubs and bench players, I think you could say that .320-.330 is average for a major league regular. So you get something like:

 

.380+ great

.360-380 very good

.340-360 above average/good

.320-.330 average

.300-320 below average/poor

<.300 terrible

 

Or something like that.

[NrM]

True, it is good progress. As for what is average, let's look at the AL average (I'm not counting NL because it is skewed due to the pitchers hitting):

 

2014: .316

2013: .320

2012: .320

2011: .323

2010: .327

2009: .336

 

2009 was the last year of the "Roid Era," which I would say went from 1993-2009, the period in which stats were greatly inflated about historical norms; by comparison, the AL OBP was .328 in 1992 and jumped to .337 in 1993 and then was above .330 until 2010. It peaked in 1996 at .350, with a second peak in 2000 at .349. The highest since 1901 was 1936 when it was .363, the lowest was .295 in 1904 and then .297 in 1968.

 

Anyhow, the point is that league offense vs. defense fluctuates over time. Historically speaking I think you could say that above .330 is weighted towards offense and below .320 or so weighted towards pitching - but of course OBP is just one factor and you'd really have to look at OPS at least.

 

Anyhow, if we take into account that the league average includes scrubs and bench players, I think you could say that .320-.330 is average for a major league regular. So you get something like:

 

.380+ great

.360-380 very good

.340-360 above average/good

.320-.330 average

.300-320 below average/poor

<.300 terrible

 

Or something like that.

 

Right. So I do think the angels are are focusing on improving that OBP. It's just taking some time. 

It doesn't matter to me if the OBP is going up because of batting average or walks.

 

btw I didn't even look anything up when I guessed .335-.350 would be above average. Got lucky there lol.

Edited January 5, 2015 by Poozy

[NrM]

The Angels are limited to $250k free agents the next two years because of Baldoquin, right. I think that starts in July. Bye bye Vlad Jr.

 

Dang that's disappointing. I haven't really seen any hype around the guy.

Why hasn't he made any top prospect lists for the angels?

 

I guess because no one has seen much of him.

Jerry Dipoto sure seems to love him though.

 

 

Somewhat mysterious, there isn't quite as much information on him as there has been for some recent Cuban prospects. But DiPoto scouted him himself for three days, had assistant general manager Scott Servais spend time with him and a few of the Angels other top international scouts as well. 

http://www.foxsports.com/west/story/angels-deal-for-cuban-infielder-roberto-baldoquin-near-completion-120914

 

I have an opinion of what that is but I wouldn't want to pin that on him before he steps on a major league field yet," he said. "We want to be conservative. At the end of the day, we have Howie Kendrick, we have Erick Aybar, we haveDavid Freese on major league club, we don't want to have this guy just sitting on the bench at the major league level... 

 

 

I think they see him starting everyday in 2016.

Edited January 5, 2015 by Poozy

[Angel Oracle]

I like Zobrist, but with the rumored what it will take to acquire him, not so much.

[eaterfan]

Can the angels sign Vlad Jr. for $250 and Vlad as front office ambassador for $10 million?

[SoWhat]

Save the prospects and sign Takashi Toritani.

[Blarg]

 

.380+ great

.360-380 very good

.340-360 above average/good

.320-.330 average

.300-320 below average/poor

<.300 CJ Cron

 

Or something like that.

 

Fixed.

[Angelsjunky]

 

It doesn't matter to me if the OBP is going up because of batting average or walks.

 

 

 

I hear this, but here's the benefit of players that take walks: A high average, low-walk player will slump and really slump. A medium average, high-walk player will slump, but still take walks.

[ten ocho recon scout]

Signing Shields would be one of my least favorite moves ever. He was useless in the playoffs last year

well...he'd fit right in.

(Couldnt resist)

[ten ocho recon scout]

I want to go on record saying im against signing shields....unless we sign him, then ill be excited we have something fresh to talk about, as well as a slew of new runors about a package of cj and cron to team X for cheap mvp type player.

Ive been cruising the tech board for the first time in my aw career....we need something to talk about dammit

[tdawg87]

At this point, Shields only makes sense if he is replacing CJ. But there is no way the Angels should sign him for anything near 5 years. If Lester, who is 3 years younger and a better pitcher only got 6 years, Shields should get 4 years max. But then again the market for starting pitchers is insane.

[AngelsLakersFan]

I am an optomistic fan but to call me a superfan would be inaccurate.

 

I think you're super optimistic ;-)

[NrM]

I hear this, but here's the benefit of players that take walks: A high average, low-walk player will slump and really slump. A medium average, high-walk player will slump, but still take walks.

 

Agree with you 100%.

 

Batting average is definitely more likely to slump than a player's ability to draw a walk.

That's why I think BABIP is so valuable because it shows when a player has been unlucky/lucky, and that directly correlates to batting average.

Edited January 6, 2015 by Poozy