Election Night 2014

[Tank]

It really doesn't work Jay.  All your graph shows is that some form of punishment can work as a deterrent but this shows that jail basically makes sure that those you send there will go back.

 

it could also show that there are some people who can't stay away from committing criminal acts.

 

i think a discussion about alternative punishments is worth having, but i think we need to keep in mind that there are some people who can't/won't be rehabilitated.

[mtangelsfan]

Very interesting Thomas.  I'm going to read that mother jones article later.

[mtangelsfan]

it could also show that there are some people who can't stay away from committing criminal acts.

 

i think a discussion about alternative punishments is worth having, but i think we need to keep in mind that there are some people who can't/won't be rehabilitated.

 

I certainly believe that and I think that would be part of any discussion of these things.

[Tank]

i was getting ready to yell at you for being another commie liberal. i guess i can't do that when you agree with me in such a genteel way. crap!

Edited November 5, 2014 by Tank

[Adam]

Good discussion. Good point about young people not fully realizing the consequences of their decisions. I think most of us would agree that we're better equipped to make good decisions in our 30's than we were in our early 20's. 

 

I feel like it is appropriate to treat a 19 year old differently (more leniency) than a 35 year old. If pressed though, I have to agree with Nate the most. 

[nate]

Based on our relative results in the test it shows how similar MT and I are politically.  I bet if you took out our answers on the religious questions then our results would have been almost identical.

[nate]

Good discussion. Good point about young people not fully realizing the consequences of their decisions. I think most of us would agree that we're better equipped to make good decisions in our 30's than we were in our early 20's. 

 

I feel like it is appropriate to treat a 19 year old differently (more leniency) than a 35 year old. If pressed though, I have to agree with Nate the most. 

 

It is always good to be on the right side of an argument.  Congrats.

[mp170.6]

what was the felony amount for theft before?

 

The dollar amount wasn't so much the issue with Prop 47.  What it did was remove the "wobbler" status for those included crimes if the amount was $950 or less -- Grand Theft, Shoplifting, Receiving Stolen Property, Writing Bad Checks, Check Forgery, and Drug Possession.  A wobbler gives the District Attorney discretion whether to charge a crime as a misdemeanor or a felony, depending on the circumstances of each case. 

 

That is now gone with the passage of Prop 47.  These crimes are now misdemeanors only provided the dollar amount is $950 or less. 

 

Each crime has some minor exceptions though, some of which are infuriating.  Writing bad checks is a great example because it remains a misdemeanor unless the offender has three forgery related convictions on their record, at which point it becomes eligible as a wobbler again.  That means I can essentially steal $950 three times via bad checks WITHOUT the possibility of going to prison.  Worst case scenario is county jail, but that's pretty much a joke.

[Brandon]

I'll have to read the MT post, but that was part of what I was talking about in the previous page.

 

Looking at society as a whole you're going to have bad apples just like your going to have those with deficiencies, ADHD, mental illness, etc. and you're not going to be able to cure all with the same medicine or treatments.

 

That 400k is just a fraction of the population and then there is a fraction of that fraction that the treatment (jail) simply isn't going to do any good but waste resources the same way a doctor wants to treat all patients the same where only x amount of the time it works.

 

I think jail generally works, but not on everyone and not on those that don't want to be a part of society in normal standards. Hell, some people enjoy jail because they don't have to be responsible for themselves or have any accountability and get a place to sleep and three meals a day.

 

But yeah, there isn't a one size fits all answer like jail. Some kid stealing a PS4 probably learns their lesson simply from being handcuffed for the first time and understands the severity of their actions, some may minimalize it and think, "That's the worst that can happen if I do it again?"

[Adam]

What should the purpose of jail be? That was one of the questions on the libcon test.

 

I fully believe in punishment/protecting the rights of individuals. Not rehab

[Brandon]

Good discussion. Good point about young people not fully realizing the consequences of their decisions. I think most of us would agree that we're better equipped to make good decisions in our 30's than we were in our early 20's. 

 

I feel like it is appropriate to treat a 19 year old differently (more leniency) than a 35 year old. If pressed though, I have to agree with Nate the most. 

 

Agreed.

 

I don't even necessarily disagree with him, just the it's fine if it's not me then worse if it is. People can call for the chair if they are that bent on being stolen from. Whether it happens to someone individually shouldn't have a barring on the punishment or severity.

 

Actually, simply being rational with punishments and crimes makes more sense than mandatory minimums and grouping the same crimes together.

[nate]

If its not me then fine?  I stated that if you are stealing from a store then fine not as stiff of punishment but if you are stealing from someone you aren't just stealing, you are also adversely affecting the person you steal from.

[Brandon]

If its not me then fine?  I stated that if you are stealing from a store then fine not as stiff of punishment but if you are stealing from someone you aren't just stealing, you are also adversely affecting the person you steal from.

 

Fair enough.

 

Just know a felony is a lot worse than a material item.

 

Trust me, I get it. The violation feeling after being stole from is the worst. I don't think ****ing up someone the rest of their life because they swiped an iPhone is rational.

[Jay]

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/04/22/america-s-recidivism-nightmare.html#

 

The study, released Tuesday, tracked 404,638 state prisoners from 30 states who were released in 2005. It found that 67.8 percent of them were re-arrested within three years of their release and 76.6 percent were re-arrested within five years. Of the latter group, more than a third were re-arrested in the first six months after leaving prison, and more than half were arrested by the end of the first year, showing that the rate of recidivism was highest during the first year and declined every year after that.

 

 

 

It really doesn't work Jay.  All your graph shows is that some form of punishment can work as a deterrent but this shows that jail basically makes sure that those you send there will go back.

 

 I don't have time to read that whole report.  Where does it say that jail vs. some other punishment results in a higher recidivism rate?

[Jay]

What should the purpose of jail be? That was one of the questions on the libcon test.

 

I fully believe in punishment/protecting the rights of individuals. Not rehab

 

Exactly.  Why should I care about recidivism in the first place?  Lock 'em up again, and again, and again.

[mtangelsfan]

Exactly.  Why should I care about recidivism in the first place?  Lock 'em up again, and again, and again.

 

Because that means they are committing another crime, don't you care about that?  Also, the more of those peeps you put in prison the more violent criminals get out early because of overcrowding.  

[Jay]

As the population grows the need for more prison space will also grow.  It's not that the punishment is too severe.  What other punishment is available?  Picking up trash alongside the highway?  Anything other than jail time amounts to a slap on the wrist.

 

As I have said previously I am in favor of constructing more prisons to relieve the overcrowding problem.

[mtangelsfan]

You might be in favor of it but I'm betting not right by your house.

[Jay]

You might be in favor of it but I'm betting not right by your house.

 

Correct, I'm thinking somewhere "out in the middle of the desert" but we might have to relocate a few meth labs or other non-essential facilities.

[TobiasFunke]

Anything other than jail time amounts to a slap on the wrist.

 

And in some cases, jail is a slap on the wrist to some people

[Schildog]

like stickboy

[Jay]

And in some cases, jail is a slap on the wrist to some people

 

True but that's all we have, other than maybe shipping them off to Liberia.

[Schildog]

you could force them to read taylor's posts

[mp170.6]

Fair enough.

 

Just know a felony is a lot worse than a material item.

 

Trust me, I get it. The violation feeling after being stole from is the worst. I don't think ****ing up someone the rest of their life because they swiped an iPhone is rational.

 

Years ago my grandfather's (uninhabited) house was ransacked and lots of valuables taken.  Besides stealing a gun, jewelry, and tools, they got away with every key in the house.  Every key.  What made it particularly awful was the stash of keys included spare keys to neighbors' homes too.  My grandfather was the neighborhood caretaker whenever people left on vacation and he amassed quite a collection of keys.  The neighborhood was on edge for months after this happened. 

 

The way I'm reading Prop 47 in the voter guide, it would be exceedingly difficult to prosecute the suspect for a felony if this happened all over again.  I hope I'm reading it wrong. 

 

I'm with you Brandon for the most part, but matters like these are not as cut-and-dried as they appear.  What's bothersome about this change is the lax sentencing handed out for misdemeanors these days, also due to overcrowding but at the county jails. 

[TobiasFunke]

True but that's all we have, other than maybe shipping them off to Liberia.

We just need to not make jail like a summer camp