Kendrick or Freese likely to be traded

[tdawg87]

I consider him an All-Star 2B.

Apparently you do not.

I consider him to be one of the team's best players, yes. But I take the term "all-star" literally.

To mt's point, he is absolutely a strength, but with one year left on his contract it's worth seeing what they can get for him to improve elsewhere. Should they trade him? Not unless they get a good return, but if they can get a good return I say go for it.

[stormngt]

I consider him to be one of the team's best players, yes. But I take the term "all-star" literally.

To mt's point, he is absolutely a strength, but with one year left on his contract it's worth seeing what they can get for him to improve elsewhere. Should they trade him? Not unless they get a good return, but if they can get a good return I say go for it.

well he did make an all star team.  So doesn't that make  him an all star?

[tdawg87]

Semantics aside, not to me. He was an all-star that season.

Is CJ an all-star?

[wopphil]

I saw it in passing so don't have the link, but read something from an A's blog that suggested a Kendrick for Samardzija trade.

That is a trade that I think makes a lot of sense, but Samardzija's perceived value is so much higher than Kendrick's that it could not happen without another significant piece heading to Oakland.

[WallyWorld]

yeah, anyone expecting a Samardzja level pitcher in return for Kendrick needs to adjust their expectations. At best he is going to bring back a young SP with modest potential, in the Tyler Skaggs mold. Personally, I think that's still a trade worth doing, and I hope the FO can get something done.

[mtangelsfan]

IMO that would be an incredibly stupid trade (a Skaggs type).  We would be weakening a position of strength for something we already have.

 

We aren't rebuilding.  Of course, you have this bizarre hatred of Kendrick so you are tainted.

[Turd Ferguson]

For the record, I wasn't saying we would get a Samardzija type in return.  I just thought it was interesting that the proposal came from an A's blog.  But I think we should hold out for a Samardzija type.  We don't have to trade Howie, so might as well aim high.

[Angel Oracle]

If Pujols and Hackilton would hit like they are supposed to, then the Kendricks wouldn't have so much pressure on them. 

Kendrick is not a cleanup hitter.   But thanks to Hackilton, he had to be one as the 2014 season wound down.  

[Second Base]

I assume you understand how big a role legs play when it comes to pitchers? If his landing leg isn't 100% wouldn't it stand to reason that he himself wouldn't be 100%? He will be forced to change his mechanics which in turn could have a serious effect on his stuff.

I'm not assuming Richards will still have health issues, nor am I assuming that he won't be effective. I'm just saying that the Angels FO shouldn't assume that he will be 100% and a lock for picking up right where he left off. Which is why I think they should get another starter on a 1 year deal.

And your point about quality over quantity I agree with. It seems we simply disagree about what is quality. I like Rasmus, but does he really count as SP depth? When was the last time he threw more than 5 innings in a single appearance? 2011? I think he could eventually be stretched out but I'm not sure he can just come out and immediately throw 5-6 innings without possibly hurting himself. I'd rather keep him as the long man in the pen and only start him in emergencies. Same with Ramos.

 

I'm optimistic about Richards because it's his landing leg, not the leg he pushes off the rubber with.  If there was a significant injury to that leg, he'd be in trouble, or would a least need a couple of years to get any real push back into his pitching.  But this is the landing leg.  Much less stress on it, it's more for balance and timing than anything.  There's no reason to believe Richards won't make a full recovery.  And if you think regression to the mean is due, check his peripheral statistics and it'll show what he did last season wasn't a fluke.  He came into his own and used his elite arsenal to dominate.  He'll be a Cy Young candidate for the next 5 years. 

 

I'd normally agree with you that there's trouble if Rasmus can't go more than 5 innings.  But with the Angels bullpen that really isn't a problem.  Morin in the 6th, Jepsen in the 7th, Smith in the 8th, Street in the 9th, it lines up perfectly.  One of the perks of having a deep bullpen.  Plus Rasmus looked really good in his 3-5 inning stints, like someone who could pull a CJ Wilson and transition back to the rotation after years in relief.   

[Hollyw00d]

Your evaluation of Richards is absolute best case scenario.

I've learned following this team for the past 25 years, that a backup plan is usually a good idea

[Second Base]

Your evaluation of Richards is absolute best case scenario.

I've learned following this team for the past 25 years, that a backup plan is usually a good idea

 

There is a backup plan.  Weaver, Wilson, Santiago, Shoemaker, Tropeano, Rasmus, Smith, Newcomb and Sanchez.  Next year, Skaggs.  There.  Backup plan. 

[Hollyw00d]

A pretty shaky one.

Only half of those guys are proven mlb pitchers. And half of that half has question marks to say the least.

[Second Base]

A pretty shaky one.

Only half of those guys are proven mlb pitchers. And half of that half has question marks to say the least.

 

Weav: 3.59 ERA

Shoemaker: 3.04 ERA

Santiago: 3.75 ERA

Tropeano: 3.03 ERA in AAA PCL, the most hitter friendly environment on Earth.

Ramsus: 2.57 ERA last year.

Wilson: Consistent low 3's ERA before the wheels came off last year.  Not suggesting we trust him, but worth a shot. 

Sean Newcomb: Lefty with mid 90's fastball.

Ricardo Sanchez: Great in Rookie Ball as a High School Jr., mid-rotation upside.

Nate Smith: 2.89 ERA in AA as a 22 year old. Big, left-handed, clean mechanics.

Tyler Skaggs: Will be back after next year, has mid-rotation upside.

 

And last but not least, Garrett Richards, the ace, one of the top 10 best pitchers in baseball. 

 

Again, just looking for things to worry over. 

[Tyler]

lol How about 2015 depth. 

[WallyWorld]

 We would be weakening a position of strength for something we already have.

 

We don't though. Skaggs, specifically, is gone for 2015. And the team needs more young, cost-controlled SP moving forward, even if Richards comes back 100%, Skaggs is fine in 2016, Shoemaker repeats his 2014 performance and Tropeano pans out. Add to that the fact that Kendrick is only signed for one more year and the Angels, I would guess, are unlikely to re-sign or extend him. 

 

People keep playing the 'compared to other 2B he's really good' card. The fact is 2B is a relatively weak position, and unlike other premium positions (1B, COF), the dropoff between the best 2B and league-average isn't much.

 

I'm not saying if the Angels go with Beckham or Green next year there will be zero drop-off, but it will minimal IMO, and they will shore up an area of the team that sorely needs it.

[Hollyw00d]

Weav: 3.59 ERA

Shoemaker: 3.04 ERA

Santiago: 3.75 ERA

Tropeano: 3.03 ERA in AAA PCL, the most hitter friendly environment on Earth.

Ramsus: 2.57 ERA last year.

Wilson: Consistent low 3's ERA before the wheels came off last year.  Not suggesting we trust him, but worth a shot. 

Sean Newcomb: Lefty with mid 90's fastball.

Ricardo Sanchez: Great in Rookie Ball as a High School Jr., mid-rotation upside.

Nate Smith: 2.89 ERA in AA as a 22 year old. Big, left-handed, clean mechanics.

Tyler Skaggs: Will be back after next year, has mid-rotation upside.

 

And last but not least, Garrett Richards, the ace, one of the top 10 best pitchers in baseball. 

 

Again, just looking for things to worry over.

Again, half of those guys have pitched at the mlb level.

Again, half of the starting rotation has huge question marks,

[stormngt]

Howie has maintain consistent performance since his all star year. CJ, a two time all star, has not maintain consistency.

Howie should have been an all star in 2013

Semantics aside, not to me. He was an all-star that season.

Is CJ an all-star?

[tdawg87]

Weav: 3.59 ERA

Shoemaker: 3.04 ERA

Santiago: 3.75 ERA

Tropeano: 3.03 ERA in AAA PCL, the most hitter friendly environment on Earth.

Ramsus: 2.57 ERA last year.

Wilson: Consistent low 3's ERA before the wheels came off last year.  Not suggesting we trust him, but worth a shot. 

Sean Newcomb: Lefty with mid 90's fastball.

Ricardo Sanchez: Great in Rookie Ball as a High School Jr., mid-rotation upside.

Nate Smith: 2.89 ERA in AA as a 22 year old. Big, left-handed, clean mechanics.

Tyler Skaggs: Will be back after next year, has mid-rotation upside.

 

And last but not least, Garrett Richards, the ace, one of the top 10 best pitchers in baseball. 

 

Again, just looking for things to worry over. 

 

Newcomb, Sanchez, and Skaggs will not pitch a single inning for the Angels in 2015. Smith probably won't either unless shit really hits the fan. Richards may not be ready for the first month of the season. This isn't pessimism, it's realism. He really may not be ready to pitch in April 2015.

 

So that leaves you with Weaver, Wilson (huge question mark, which you have already admitted), Shoemaker, Santiago, Tropeano (21.2 IP in his MLB career), and Rasmus (a guy who hasn't pitched 5 innings or more in 3 years, and regularly in 4) for the first month of the season. When Richards is back, it looks much better but there are still question marks. I think some are getting a little comfortable with how Shoemaker pitched last year. I like the guy a lot and think he will likely be a staple in this rotation for years to come, but he will also have to make a lot of adjustments, as all pitchers do.

[tdawg87]

Howie has maintain consistent performance since his all star year. CJ, a two time all star, has not maintain consistency.

Howie should have been an all star in 2013

 

 

Ok. That still doesn't make him an "all-star". But feel free to call him what you want. I'll just say he's a good player.

[mtangelsfan]

We don't though. Skaggs, specifically, is gone for 2015. And the team needs more young, cost-controlled SP moving forward, even if Richards comes back 100%, Skaggs is fine in 2016, Shoemaker repeats his 2014 performance and Tropeano pans out. Add to that the fact that Kendrick is only signed for one more year and the Angels, I would guess, are unlikely to re-sign or extend him. 

 

People keep playing the 'compared to other 2B he's really good' card. The fact is 2B is a relatively weak position, and unlike other premium positions (1B, COF), the dropoff between the best 2B and league-average isn't much.

 

I'm not saying if the Angels go with Beckham or Green next year there will be zero drop-off, but it will minimal IMO, and they will shore up an area of the team that sorely needs it.

 

Offensively will be a drop off.  Defensively will be a large drop off.  

[Second Base]

Offensive dropoff will be minimal.  Green can keep up with Howie in the batters box any day of the week.  Defensively, definitely, a huge drop off.  Green should get better as the year goes on and become an acceptable or even half-way decent defensive 2B, but Howie's just growin into an outstanding defensive 2B.  As steady as they come.

 

But again, same thing, if the Angels get a #3 SP in return or a good offensive OF or SS prospect in AA then I'd do it. 

[WallyWorld]

Offensively will be a drop off.  Defensively will be a large drop off.  

 

Offensively, say Green is our 2B next year. How much of a drop-off would you really expect? What was so amazing about Howie's stat line last year? the 7HRs or the 110 strikeouts? He hit a nice .293, but a lot of those were empty singles. You don't think Green could put up a similar line? Maybe a small drop-off overall, but a few less singles over the course of a season doesn't make a real difference.

 

Defensively I think you're seriously overrating Kendrick. He doesn't make a ton of errors (though he does boot more routine balls than he should), and he makes the occasional great play - and I'll give Howie credit for improving his defense over the course of his career. But he also makes a lot of bad plays that don't necessarily show up in the box score. Not great feeds to the SS covering 2B, resulting in a missed GIDP - that sort of thing.

 

And you're failing to look beyond 2015, when Howie most likely won't be here anyway. I'm talking about getting a young, cost-controlled SP that could be here for years, for cheap and provide real value. Why is everyone so precious about holding onto Howie for one more year? For a few extra hits over 162 games?

Edited November 13, 2014 by WallyWorld

[mtangelsfan]

Look at any defensive metric and you will see that he is a plus defender and Green, well not so much.  So you can have Green who may keep up with Kendrick offensively but will be a question mark and will absolutely not keep up defensively or Beckham who may keep up defensively with Kendrick but will certainly not keep up with him offensively.

 

As usual, you are completely undervaluing him.

[WallyWorld]

Look at any defensive metric and you will see that he is a plus defender and Green, well not so much.  So you can have Green who may keep up with Kendrick offensively but will be a question mark and will absolutely not keep up defensively or Beckham who may keep up defensively with Kendrick but will certainly not keep up with him offensively.

 

As usual, you are completely undervaluing him.

young, cost-controlled SP is the most sough-after asset in baseball. If Kendrick can bring back one of those - even if it's a guy with a modest ceiling - it's worth it. Again, he's most likely gone after next year anyway.

[Mark68]

Offensively, say Green is our 2B next year. How much of a drop-off would you really expect? What was so amazing about Howie's stat line last year? the 7HRs or the 110 strikeouts? He hit a nice .293, but a lot of those were empty singles. You don't think Green could put up a similar line? Maybe a small drop-off overall, but a few less singles over the course of a season doesn't make a real difference.

 

Defensively I think you're seriously overrating Kendrick. He doesn't make a ton of errors (though he does boot more routine balls than he should), and he makes the occasional great play - and I'll give Howie credit for improving his defense over the course of his career. But he also makes a lot of bad plays that don't necessarily show up in the box score. Not great feeds to the SS covering 2B, resulting in a missed GIDP - that sort of thing.

 

And you're failing to look beyond 2015, when Howie most likely won't be here anyway. I'm talking about getting a young, cost-controlled SP that could be here for years, for cheap and provide real value. Why is everyone so precious about holding onto Howie for one more year? For a few extra hits over 162 games?