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So is Scioscia good again?


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In New York, Boston, or Philly Scioscia would have been fired a couple years ago based on his teams consistently missing the playoffs despite high payrolls, and he never would have gotten that 10 year deal in the first place.  Scioscia had a very long leash based on the laid back market he manages in, Orange County, to be able to stick around long enough to see the team make the playoffs again after nearly 5 years.  The Angels doing well this year isn't an 'eating crow' deal for anybody regarding Scioscia.  This team was crap for 4 years, and now they're great again.

 

I think you troll me every time this subject arises, but I'll bite.

 

I have no problem with someone simply being removed because the team as a whole doesn't succeed, it's the nature of the beast even though I don't put a whole lot of merit on coaches anyway.....when players succeed the team wins, when they don't they lose. A coach doesn't add or negate loses. I'm sure there is some sabermetric out there that will dispel this notion.

 

But I have an issue for the reasons why someone is fired and some of the stupidity people were coming up with to have him canned was simply moronic. Just say the losses are piling up and bring someone else in, don't make up something about how motivated Pujols is in the batters box.

 

Also, I disagree that he would have simply been canned in another market because of his contract......which is another topic and discussion for another time. It makes zero sense from a business perspective to eat all that money and pay someone else to come in and get the same results. Whether it is Sosh, Torre, or LaRussa, if players are not performing the losses will pile up. No one was going to make Blanton pitch, Madsen get healthy, or Pujols to not be so erratic. 

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Sosh has skills and flaws. The flaws are maddening. He isn't any better or worse of a manager today than he was last year. Nothing has changed except players are performing. He shouldn't get the bulk of the credit or blame for their success or lack there of.

 

Back to the Sciocia cricle jerk.

 

Pretty much what I always say in these topics.

 

However, I do like the topic in conjunction to the fire him ones from last year.

 

Sosh hasn't differed much, if at all, from last year to this year. The only difference is the players are performing.

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Like any manager in the MLB, the manager is usually only as good as the roster assembled by his GM.  The difference after that is how many additional wins can a manager squeeze out of a roster than another manager who might replace him.  The 2000 - 2001 Angels were utter garbage and needed Stoneman to clean up the mess left by the previous regime so Mike got a pass.  2002 is where the rubber met the road as the team was built to compete and did so despite a 6-14 start that almost made Mike a managerial casualty.  In 2003, Stoneman did his best to keep the WS roster intact and you know what happened?  The SP that was good enough to get us to the playoffs stopped being "good enough".  They were F'n awful.  Washburn went from #2-like to replacement level (10-15 4.43 ERA 99 ERA+), Lackey had growing pains his first full season (10-16 4.63 ERA 95 ERA+), Ramon sucked absolute ass despite the W-L record (16-13 5.20 ERA 85 ERA+), and both Sele and Appier had ERA's close to 6.  It got so bad they experimented with Shields as a start towards the end of the season.  Also, Eckstein, Glaus, and Erstad all missed time due to injuries and Tim Salmon started to age playing his last full season.  Did Scioscia suddenly lose his ability to manage?  Would a Franken-manager of LaRussa/Stengal/Weaver have done any better?  Probably not because, you know, the players were injured and/or sucked.  Then, 2004, something magical happened - they signed a bunch of talent and, holy crap, they got better again.  The SP was still pretty crappy but the BP was really good and offense scored just enough runs...also helped that Vlad had an MVP season.  The talent assembled during that time worked with Mike's managerial philosophy and everyone was relatively healthy.  Talent and "luck" equalled a pretty solid run from 2002-2009...best in franchise history.  However, there comes an adjustment period at times where the formula has to be adjusted....hence 2010 - 2013.  Things were tweaked...chances were taken...a shit-ton of money was spent to make up for said chances...wolves mouths were jumped...and here were are now.

 

Mike has his issues (contact play, 5 man infield, a 3rd base coach with a wind-mill for an arm) but he creates an environment conducive to winning and has a game plan even before he enters the dugout so, like it or not, he's an elite manager in this game and if/when he leaves, you'll have difficulty replacing him.  

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Part of my problem with the fire Sosh crowd was they didn't care who would have to replace him nor were there any viable options mentioned. Just fire him and they will start winning or some other nonsense.

Yep, because it's easy to replace a Hall of Fame level manager.

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Part of my problem with the fire Sosh crowd was they didn't care who would have to replace him nor were there any viable options mentioned. Just fire him and they will start winning or some other nonsense.

 

There were a lot of people who were all hot and bothered about Ryne Sandberg and bemoaned not getting him when he took the Phillies job..  Anyone that has watched him manage this year or his handling of the veterans know's he's been a complete clown.   

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An argument could be made that the problem wasn't Scioscia, it was the talent pool.  

 

i think this point too often gets overlooked in how the team performed from 2010-2013. you can only go so far with what you have.

 

i also think too many people here got too yankee-like after the teams success 02-09.

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It's simple. When the team performs to expectations, his supporters talk about what a wonderful job he's doing. When they performed way below expectations the last 4 seasons, his supporters said the manager doesn't really do anything other than make out the lineup card. If he's going to get the credit for this season, then he should also get the blame for the last 4.

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It's simple. When the team performs to expectations, his supporters talk about what a wonderful job he's doing. When they performed way below expectations the last 4 seasons, his supporters said the manager doesn't really do anything other than make out the lineup card. If he's going to get the credit for this season, then he should also get the blame for the last 4.

 

It's simple.  When the team performs to expectations, his detractors talk about how he has just gotten lucky and that the players are just performing.  When the team performs way below expectations his detractors talk about what a horrible job he is doing.  If he gets the blame for the four previous seasons, he should get the credit for this one.

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I have said this over and over again. The payroll argument is crap. Higher payroll is not indicative to better personal. What it may mean is that too many players are over paid.

If it is true than Vernon Wells would be one of the best players in the game. Instead he hasn't been in baseball for two years. Hell one year we were paying Kazmir, GMJ, and Wells and they weren't on the team.

Is that the manager's fault or the GM?

Of the last four years; 2010, 2011, and 2012 were poorly constructed teams. I don't care what the payroll was. The 25 men in uniform did not comprise a good team.

For our payroll that's crap, expectations are different than they would be with a lesser payroll. I expect this team to make the playoffs just about every year. I'm glad we're finally getting it again this year.

Edited by stormngt
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I believe he is the only Angel manager to have a 500+ record.

 

 

Gene Mauch, Doug Rader, I think Norm Sherry was over .500 too.   Even if he was the only Angels manager with a winning record, that's more of an indictment on the history of the franchise than a celebration of his managing.

Edited by Inside Pitch
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One thing I haven't seen mentioned, the all important Pythagorian W-L:

 

should be 79-56

 

Actually 83-53...edge Scioscia

 

Pythagorean W-L is nonsense. If oyu have a very good back end of the bullpen you will be "above your pythag", if you have a bad bullpen (like the Angels 2010-2013) you will be "below your pythag" (like the Angels 2010-2013).

 

Edited by ScottLux
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