Israel vs. Palestine

[floplag]

Isn't it Israel's intent during this invasion to target known Hamas places/people and destroy the tunnels they've been using to come into Israel and attack? I'm perfectly okay with that. It's not like they're targeting busses and night clubs, like the Palestinians frequently do.

 

Targeting known hamas people and places that may or may not have had anything to do with the recent rocket attacks.

Would you be ok with police in this country arresting or shooting know associates of criminals that did a crime since they could not find the ones who did it ?

[floplag]

You said "until they actually invade you it isn't okay to invade them". Japan never invaded the US and Germany never even attacked the US before we declared war in them.

Btw, if bombing is your definition of attacking, then Hamas started this by launching rockets into Israel.

And you point out over kill but the rockets haven't stopped. Until they do Hamas us still fighting.

You never addressed the US carpet bombing of Dresden which killed more than 25,000.

 

Japan never invaded us?  Pearl Harbor says hello... Germany did attack our allies.. again, fail comparison... you are splitting hairs and its transparent. 

 

Again this issue isnt who started it, or who did the latest thus and so.. the issue is whether or not Israel is justified in invading Gaza due to the recent issue... in my opinion the answer to that is absolutely not

 

 

[eaterfan]

Japan never invaded us?  Pearl Harbor says hello... Germany did attack our allies.. again, fail comparison... you are splitting hairs and its transparent. 

 

Again this issue isnt who started it, or who did the latest thus and so.. the issue is whether or not Israel is justified in invading Gaza due to the recent issue... in my opinion the answer to that is absolutely not

Pearl Harbor wasn't an invasion. It was an attack. They never sent ground troops in an effort to take control of the territory. If you Google "invasion of Pearl Harbor" the results that come back are all "Attack on Pearl Harbor".

The US and Britain were justified in their invading Japan and Germany because they were attacked, though not invaded. If a country us attacked they should have the right to attack and in this instance Israel was attacked first and continues to be attacked.

[floplag]

Pearl Harbor wasn't an invasion. It was an attack. They never sent ground troops in an effort to take control of the territory. If you Google "invasion of Pearl Harbor" the results that come back are all "Attack on Pearl Harbor".

The US and Britain were justified in their invading Japan and Germany because they were attacked, though not invaded. If a country us attacked they should have the right to attack and in this instance Israel was attacked first and continues to be attacked.

as said, splitting hairs and still not the issue

[eaterfan]

It is the issue. The issue is what is offense and what is defense. When is it okay to go on the offensive as a means of defending yourself.

 

Israel was hit with rockets (attack). Responded with rockets to try to stop the rockets. Hit many targets and racked up a lot of collateral damage. Egypt proposes cease fire saying enough is enough. Israel stops firing agreeing with Egypt. Hamas fires rockets into Israel (Israel attacked again). Israel in an effort to end rocket attacks (defend itself) goes into Gaza to target rockets, Hamas members and tunnels for bombers. It exposes its troops to more risk in an effort to limit civilian casualties. When the attacks stop and the tunnels are destroyed they will withdraw. Hamas attacked just like Japan except they are really bad at it. If a country is attacked they have the right to attack back.

[Schildog]

I'm impressed Dresden was able to be brought up.

Edited July 18, 2014 by Schildog

[eaterfan]

I'm impressed Dresden was able to be brought up.

 

Ha. I've finally used my history major for something practical! Maybe in the next decade I'll be able to put my poli sci degree to use once.

[floplag]

It is the issue. The issue is what is offense and what is defense. When is it okay to go on the offensive as a means of defending yourself.

 

Israel was hit with rockets (attack). Responded with rockets to try to stop the rockets. Hit many targets and racked up a lot of collateral damage. Egypt proposes cease fire saying enough is enough. Israel stops firing agreeing with Egypt. Hamas fires rockets into Israel (Israel attacked again). Israel in an effort to end rocket attacks (defend itself) goes into Gaza to target rockets, Hamas members and tunnels for bombers. It exposes its troops to more risk in an effort to limit civilian casualties. When the attacks stop and the tunnels are destroyed they will withdraw. Hamas attacked just like Japan except they are really bad at it. If a country is attacked they have the right to attack back.

this list could go on for years in terms of who has done what between Israel and Palestine, the one thing that is known is that its just endlessly perpetrating the violence.

clearly many of you are ok with these actions, thats fine, and i can understand the logic to a certain point, however, dont tell me this is an act of defense, when it isnt.   they themsvles are calling it an offensive... im pretty sure hamas used the same justification for actually firing the rockets... some other offense that israel has done

look im not anti israel, and im certainly not pro paletine.. im simply tired of being told thats these attacks are somehow defensive... i dont buy it anymore, not after 40 years of hearing about all these endless attacks in the name of defense.

We went intoi iraq over the threat of WMD... a pre-emptive strike that was designed to prevent htem from being used.  most on this board railed that and called buch everything but a white man for doing it... yet i see little difference between the 2 using the logic im being given here today.

[HaloMagic]

Flop, what exactly should Israel do?

[TobiasFunke]

Stop baiting him HM

[nate]

Tickle fight

[Tank]

Targeting known hamas people and places that may or may not have had anything to do with the recent rocket attacks.

Would you be ok with police in this country arresting or shooting know associates of criminals that did a crime since they could not find the ones who did it ?

 

i don't have a problem. Hamas' sworn program is to eliminate all of israel from the map. if they weren't involved in this specific attack against the israelis, they'll likely be involved in future ones because they consider israel the enemy and a state of constant war exists between the two sides.

 

as for criminals in this country, the rule of law must be followed, which is different than a state of war existing between opposing countries.

[floplag]

i don't have a problem. Hamas' sworn program is to eliminate all of israel from the map. if they weren't involved in this specific attack against the israelis, they'll likely be involved in future ones because they consider israel the enemy and a state of constant war exists between the two sides.

 

as for criminals in this country, the rule of law must be followed, which is different than a state of war existing between opposing countries.

 

Half the middle east has sworn such a pact.. would they be justified in invading other nations in the name of defense?  By this logic it would be acceptable for Israel to invade the entire Muslim world.  At some point it has to stop

 

[floplag]

Flop, what exactly should Israel do?

 

Defend itself... which does not include invasion of others.

they have blocked what 90% of the missile or rockets that have been fired... they have kept the border secure, they have done everything right, up till they roll tanks into other sovereign lands.

This entire fight was started over them wanting their own lands, how is invading others a positive step?

Yes, it means taking hits... yes, it means some pain... but it also means they do have the higher moral ground they are claiming. 

I have no issue with supporting them in that regard, but i cannot support them invading others in this manner.  If they knew exactly where the rockets were and who fired them, maybe, fine, but they dont.  Again did we learn nothing from Iraq WMD.

Let the cowardice of those firing them speak for itself and stop the constant tit for tat.

 

[nate]

How can they defend themselves without assaulting those that are attacking them?

[floplag]

How can they defend themselves without assaulting those that are attacking them?

seriously?  do you not see the opposition of the words you just used?

i dont know what to say to make this clear to you, and frankly i doubt anything i say would, but attacking those who may, or may not have had anything to do with it simply because they happen to be in the area, is going to do nothing but perpetrate the cycle.

They are NOT attacking those who are, they do not know who fired the rockets.. only that it was Hamas, and by attacking Gaza they are attacking those who might have had something to do with it, or may have been like them just trying to survive.

 

its clear you feel Israel is beyond reproach on the matter, and that is perhaps the most dangerous viewpoint.

[nate]

It is Hamas that is attacking them.

 

Hamas are also gigantic piles of shit that hide in well populated areas so they can't be bombed back.  The only way to take care of that is with a ground assault.

[Lhalo]

Over 300 killed and 50,000 displaced in Palestine.

 

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/19/gaza-death-toll-climbs-diplomacy-truce

[floplag]

and EVERYONE in those areas is Hamas... right?
you know what, never-mind.. nothing im gonna say is gonna matter to you.. Israel has no accountability for anything in your mind and is fully justified in doing these things... i disagree, we agree to disagree.

[HaloFan85]

HaloFan, please provide links when you make claims like that.

https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl

[NrM]

Why the hell are you guys(the ones defending hamas) ignoring the fact that Hamas uses civilians as human shields like it's no big deal. 

Anyways, I don't like Bill Mauer, but he sums up how I feel about the on going conflict.

Bill Maher blames Hamas for civilian deaths on both sides - [5:58]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6qeHvd8Tdmo

Edited July 19, 2014 by Poozy

[NrM]

https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl

 

Only took me to the google main page.

I'd love to see a non biased source.

[floplag]

Why the hell are you guys(the ones defending hamas) ignoring the fact that Hamas uses civilians as human shields like it's no big deal. 

Anyways, I don't like Bill Mauer, but he sums up how I feel about the on going conflict.

Bill Maher blames Hamas for civilian deaths on both sides - [5:58]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6qeHvd8Tdmo

Noone is defending that, and i dont think anyone is even remotely defending Hamas... i for one am only saying that going on the offensive against a region where those people are, and not against those specific people, is not a defensive move

Obliterating Gaza would affect not only Hamas, but those there who are simply trying to live, just like Israel.  Unless you assume that everyone in Gaza is Hamas

[NrM]

Noone is defending that, and i dont think anyone is even remotely defending Hamas... i for one am only saying that going on the offensive against a region where those people are, and not against those specific people, is not a defensive move

Obliterating Gaza would affect not only Hamas, but those there who are simply trying to live, just like Israel.  Unless you assume that everyone in Gaza is Hamas

 

 

Do you even understand what war is? Seriously I don't think you do.

Israel is a tiny country the size of new jersey surrounded by hundreds of millions of enemies. They are doing what they feel is best for them. You have no idea what they have to deal with on a daily basis. 

 

 

You are basically saying Israel should do nothing in response. 

Edited July 20, 2014 by Poozy

[Taylor]

Israel hasn't done themselves any humanitarian favors by treating the Palestinians in the region like second class citizens. Both sides have committed great atrocities.