Kershaw or Trout?

[AngelsLakersFan]

WAR for pitchers is pretty much worthless as it's basically a glorified version of FIP*, outcomes on balls in play are completely ignored in determining WAR for pitchers. Players like Jered Weaver who induce lots of weak popups have almost the same fWAR ratings as players like Joe Blanton who don't give up free passes but allow doubles every other at bat. 

 

IMO the difference between Kershaw and the others should be greater. 

 

*FIP = ((13*HR)+(3*(BB+HBP))-(2*K))/IP + constant

 

I believe he was using RA9-WAR which uses runs allowed instead of FIP.

[santini1]

No, I said sans those two (not those two). But the latrine, att and petco are all. Ig time pitcher parks.

The dogs are the class of the division...the rox have some bats but on the road are a different story...after that who? The giants have a weak offense, arizona is a shell of itslef and the pads are horrible (offense wise). When the giants were winning a few years ago, the dodger offense was horrible, and the other teams were as they are today.

Im not taking anything away from kershaw. I hate the dodgers but love him. But pitching where hes been the last few years has benefitted him, as its benefitted the giants staff as well.

Ohh ok, I understand. And yeah, the competition and field also boosts up his numbers. However, he is 8th all time in ERA+ which take those factors into account, and 5 players proceeding him are deadball era pitchers, and then a 6th one is a closer (Mariano). excluding those, he is 2nd all time behind Pedro, amd he is ONLY 26 years old. Not one of his years have been a prime year and this year might be a preview of his nect couple of years when he should hit his prime. . Thats the scary part. Ofcourse, it goes the same for trout .

[santini1]

Preceeding*

[ten ocho recon scout]

Good call on the era+. Thats a pretty good arguement. 5th all time is pretty impressive, but I would think because he hasnt hit the downside of his career yet that type of stat will change over time

[Taylor]

I'll take a pitcher over a player in the playoffs.

 

Pitchers aren't players?

[LAAFANofLA]

Trout. No Doubt.

[AngelsFanSince86]

Still, Kershaw's ERA and ERA+ can only go down by the time he retires

The thing is he hasn't hit his prime yet and the assumption is he will get better before he gets worse. Also, most good pitchers stats are most skewed by their first few years moreso then their last whereas kershaw hasn't had an ERA above 3.00 after his first year.

[AngelsFanSince86]

As far as kershaw being the best, id still argue that felix needs to be considered. Similar numbers, but felix does it in the tougher league.

I read a good article a few years back about how the nl cy young almost always (in the last decade) comes from the west. And it mentioned how much the parks in the west favor pitchers (sans az and coors), and how the west is generally a weak division overall. Meaning that the number 1 team generally has the best pitcher, and the teams behind are generally pretty bad.

Oakland has been good for 3 or so yesrs now, texas was until recently. Weve had pitching isdues but have been good offensively for a few years, and aside from 10/11 were great offensively before that. Thats who felix has been facing

I think that debate will happen down the line because both haven't gone through their prime but kershaws career numbers are significantly better then his. Enough to make up for the difference in leagues and divisions. Kershaws ERA is over twice the average starting ERA difference between leagues. I am not at my computer to look up the average league difference in ERA+ and FIP, but it seems his lead is large enough to make up for it.

[YouthofToday]

There is no comparison to American football.

Soccer offers a better comparison. I take the striker, the dude that actually puts numbers on the scoreboard.

[UndertheHalo]

theres an obvious answer here and its Trout.  He impacts every game.  Kershaw, while fantastic is a once every 5 games factor.  Also, I have minor quibbles with some of the thoughts stating that Kershaw will only get better and that he is far and away the best pitcher in the game.  First of all, almost assuredly Kershaw is not going to get better.  His "prime" is now, traditional "primes" do not apply because he got to the majors far sooner then what is typical.  He's pitched a lot, he's human, and his arm is not magically getting stronger.  regarding the far and away the best pitcher comments, while I have no problem with anyone thinking he's the best (I personally do) I think that King Felix gets the shaft on this topic far too often.  Felix is certainly in the conversation and has pitched in a much harder league.  The AL is and has been a stronger league then the NL for some time.  For me its very close between those 2 pretty close to a draw.  

Edited July 12, 2014 by UndertheHalo

[AngelsFanSince86]

theres an obvious answer here and its Trout. He impacts every game. Kershaw, while fantastic is a once every 5 games factor. Also, I have minor quibbles with some of the thoughts stating that Kershaw will only get better and that he is far and away the best pitcher in the game. First of all, almost assuredly Kershaw is not going to get better. His "prime" is now, traditional "primes" do not apply because he got to the majors far sooner then what is typical. He's pitched a lot, he's human, and his arm is not magically getting stronger. regarding the far and away the best pitcher comments, while I have no problem with anyone thinking he's the best (I personally do) I think that King Felix gets the shaft on this topic far too often. Felix is certainly in the conversation and has pitched in a much harder league. The AL is and has been a stronger league then the NL for some time. For me its very close between those 2 pretty close to a draw.

First, I have already said that I would choose trout over kershaw of we are picking one player to be on a team. Just thought I would clarify before moving on... You act like every other pitcher never pitched in the minors. Kershaw only has 4 seasons of around 200 IP. Felix has had 7. Dan haren had about 7 before he has issues. To think a pitcher of his caliber doesn't have more in him when compared to other lesser pitchers just doesn't make sense. Of course anything can happen, but based on career IP he should have at least a few more years of top quality production that should only get better considering he hasn't hit his prime. Notice how Felix is having an insane year and just hit the first year of his prime. He got to the mlb just as early as Clayton did.

[ten ocho recon scout]

The thing is he hasn't hit his prime yet and the assumption is he will get better before he gets worse. Also, most good pitchers stats are most skewed by their first few years moreso then their last whereas kershaw hasn't had an ERA above 3.00 after his first year.

What describes prime? Becsuse he isnt 28 yet?

Kershaw is a beast...no atgumemt what so ever. But I doubt he gets better....just bery steady for the next 4 years before he starts a slow decline im thinking...

[seenoevil]

never doubt trout

[santini1]

For some of you saying kershaw isnt getting any better and he might be in his prime right now and decline early.. don't you think the same for for trout? I honestly dodnt think neither of them are declining anytime soon, but there is a possibility of early peak. I do think trout will last until his mid thirties putting up his numbers, And Kershaw will only last till his low thirties. That puts both of them as some of the best players all time in each of their categories.

[ten ocho recon scout]

I dont think anyone is suggesting kershaw will decline early, just saying hes already peaking. Hes not likely to improve on where he is now

[ELEVEN]

Off topic a bit, but when I was house shopping 10 years ago, one of the things that sold me was being between Rancho and San Berdoo so I could be a bike ride from both the Quakes and 66ers ballparks. I have had the pleasure of watching Trout with the Quakes (when they were the Angels affiliate) and both Felix (Mariners) and Kershaw (dodgers) with the 66ers previuos incarnations, along with many many others.

The thing about Felix is he used to throw a filthy slider in addition to the rest of his arsenal. The club actually made him stop throwing it in fear he would injure his arm. IMHO it was his best pitch at that time, and I have to wonder how much more dominant he would be today with it.

Think Frankie Rodriguez's but even nastier. I've never seen one like it.

Those 3 were obvioulsy the best prospects I've ever seen, and it was apparent then too.