Why are Smart Teams Spending Money on Relievers?

[Docwaukee]

I read this awhile back and posted it in another thread today, but I thought it was apropos to a lot of what we've been talking about and just wanted to get some thoughts:

 

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=22672

 

[19HALO71]

Oh!!

Oh!!

Oh!!

(Hand raised in air)

Oh!!

Because they're smart!!!

[ELEVEN]

Welcome back

[Mark68]

They're spending money on CERTAIN relievers. Smart teams are not throwing money at just any reliever. The good ones, with a consistent track record, will command dollars. But smart teams are NOT buying bullpens wholesale. They are developing from within and spending money on certain relievers that, essentially, complete their bullpen. This is what strikes me as hilarious about people bitching that Dipoto didn't go out and spend top dollar on an entire bullpen. He spent money on one: Joe Smith. That's all we could afford to spend top dollar on.

 

Good teams have a solid young core of relievers that they can complement with a Big Name if need be. The Angels have developed a lot of crap over the last half-decade or so.

Edited April 24, 2014 by Mark68

[iiisenordingdong]

Here's why:

 

[Reveille1984]

They're spending money on CERTAIN relievers. Smart teams are not throwing money at just any reliever. The good ones, with a consistent track record, will command dollars. But smart teams are NOT buying bullpens wholesale. They are developing from within and spending money on certain relievers that, essentially, complete their bullpen. This is what strikes me as hilarious about people bitching that Dipoto didn't go out and spend top dollar on an entire bullpen. He spent money on one: Joe Smith. That's all we could afford to spend top dollar on.

 

Good teams have a solid young core of relievers that they can compliment with a Big Name if need be. The Angels have developed a lot of crap over the last half-decade or so.

 

Pretty much this.  All too often on these forums you'll see "F'ing Dipoto!  He did nothing to upgrade the bullpen!"  Well, when pretty much none of your relievers from your own system pan out mixed with increasingly shitty luck in the ones that were signed, you're going to have a problem. 

 

You can't expect a successful bullpen to consist of 4-5+ top tier relievers signed in free agency; it just doesn't work that way.  And that's not just for relievers.  Free agency is supposed to be used to patch a few holes here and there on a mainly home-grown team, and that is becoming more and more apparent looking at recent trends and how pretty much zero great players are reaching the open market anymore.  Our regular lineup has been good because of a core we have developed (Trout, Kendrick, Morales, Aybar, Calhoun) mixed with a few signings to fill organizational holes.  Same with starting pitching (Weaver, Skaggs, Richards developed internally with Wilson as a good signed addition).  What relievers have we developed that are currenty contributing in a meaningful way?  Kohn has a career 1.4 WHIP, Jepsen 1.45 WHIP, Salas is acquired trash, Frieri acquired in a trade, Herrera a 34 year old reclamation project, Maronde has a 1.81 WHIP in about 15 major league innings... etc. etc. etc.  We have developed literally ZERO above average bullpen arms going on years now.

 

Hopefully Alvarez, Morin, Bedrosian and some other guys can start turning our organization around in the pen, because things have been absolutely bleak. 

[Angel Oracle]

Why did we struggle for almost a decade, since Donkey and K-Rod first came up in 2002, before FINALLY beginning to develop relievers again recently!!!!????

Combination of Clay Daniels screwing us in Latin America, Reagins trading away prospect pitchers left and right, and substandard coaching in the minors from the mid 2000s through early 2010s?

Edited April 24, 2014 by Angel Oracle

[mtangelsfan]

Pretty much this.  All too often on these forums you'll see "F'ing Dipoto!  He did nothing to upgrade the bullpen!"  Well, when pretty much none of your relievers from your own system pan out mixed with increasingly shitty luck in the ones that were signed, you're going to have a problem. 

 

You can't expect a successful bullpen to consist of 4-5+ top tier relievers signed in free agency; it just doesn't work that way.  And that's not just for relievers.  Free agency is supposed to be used to patch a few holes here and there on a mainly home-grown team, and that is becoming more and more apparent looking at recent trends and how pretty much zero great players are reaching the open market anymore.  Our regular lineup has been good because of a core we have developed (Trout, Kendrick, Morales, Aybar, Calhoun) mixed with a few signings to fill organizational holes.  Same with starting pitching (Weaver, Skaggs, Richards developed internally with Wilson as a good signed addition).  What relievers have we developed that are currenty contributing in a meaningful way?  Kohn has a career 1.4 WHIP, Jepsen 1.45 WHIP, Salas is acquired trash, Frieri acquired in a trade, Herrera a 34 year old reclamation project, Maronde has a 1.81 WHIP in about 15 major league innings... etc. etc. etc.  We have developed literally ZERO above average bullpen arms going on years now.

 

Hopefully Alvarez, Morin, Bedrosian and some other guys can start turning our organization around in the pen, because things have been absolutely bleak. 

 

I hate the luck thing.  Dipoto signed Burnett and Madson last year.  Both pitchers coming off of injuries and surgeries.  The fact that Madson never pitched and Burnett hasn't really pitched for us still really isn't unlucky.  Its taking a shot and missing.  Its playing bad odds and them blaming the gambling gods.

[Mark68]

I hate the luck thing.  Dipoto signed Burnett and Madson last year.  Both pitchers coming off of injuries and surgeries.  The fact that Madson never pitched and Burnett hasn't really pitched for us still really isn't unlucky.  Its taking a shot and missing.  Its playing bad odds and them blaming the gambling gods.

Here's the weird thing...don't free agents usually have to pass a physical for the deal to be officially consummated? I'm sure there was an assumption on the Madson signing that he wouldn't pass a physical at that point, which is why the deal was low and had incentives. Certainly Burnett had to pass a physical, right?

 

The bottom line is still this: there is little to NO home-grown talent in the pen, and Smith (this year) and Madson and Burnett (last year) were free agent signings that were meant to complement the young arms in the pen. Unfortunately, the young arms in the pen have consistently sucked. So, Dipoto has had to gamble on the cheap, and, for the most part, it hasn't worked.

 

It doesn't change the overall narrative one iota.

Edited April 24, 2014 by Mark68

[happybat4]

I hate the luck thing.  Dipoto signed Burnett and Madson last year.  Both pitchers coming off of injuries and surgeries.  The fact that Madson never pitched and Burnett hasn't really pitched for us still really isn't unlucky.  Its taking a shot and missing.  Its playing bad odds and them blaming the gambling gods.

I didn't realize Burnett was coming off a surgery when we signed him. I thought he was lights out the previous year. Madson I knew was coming off a surgery

[Inside Pitch]

Here's the weird thing...don't free agents usually have to pass a physical for the deal to be officially consummated? I'm sure there was an assumption on the Madson signing that he wouldn't pass a physical at that point, which is why the deal was low and had incentives. Certainly Burnett had to pass a physical, right?

 

The bottom line is still this: there is little to NO home-grown talent in the pen, and Smith (this year) and Madson and Burnett (last year) were free agent signing that were meant to complement the young arms in the pen. Unfortunately, the young arms in the pen have consistently sucked. So, Dipoto has had to gamble on the cheap, and, for the most part, it hasn't worked.

 

It doesn't change the overall narrative one iota.

 

A team can look at medicals and make a decision based on those.   Neither Madson or Burnett were able to even throw at the time.  

 

Drafting or producing relievers is a relatively new thing, historically most relievers were failed SP prospects.  Unfortunately the Angels traded most of those types away in recent years and in Hanson's case they traded an established reliever for a failed SP..  The guy closing in Low A was a college reliever, RJ Alvarez had been converted to full time relief pitcher his Jr year at FAU, so at least they have been moving towards drafting with the pen in mind in recent years.

Still no excuse for letting the pen erode to where it is now.

[mtangelsfan]

Here's the weird thing...don't free agents usually have to pass a physical for the deal to be officially consummated? I'm sure there was an assumption on the Madson signing that he wouldn't pass a physical at that point, which is why the deal was low and had incentives. Certainly Burnett had to pass a physical, right?

 

The bottom line is still this: there is little to NO home-grown talent in the pen, and Smith (this year) and Madson and Burnett (last year) were free agent signing that were meant to complement the young arms in the pen. Unfortunately, the young arms in the pen have consistently sucked. So, Dipoto has had to gamble on the cheap, and, for the most part, it hasn't worked.

 

It doesn't change the overall narrative one iota.

 

and yet he spent the majority of money last year on Hamilton and one of his two best trade chips on David Freese. 

[Make Angels Great Again]

I hate the luck thing. Dipoto signed Burnett and Madson last year. Both pitchers coming off of injuries and surgeries. The fact that Madson never pitched and Burnett hasn't really pitched for us still really isn't unlucky. Its taking a shot and missing. Its playing bad odds and them blaming the gambling gods.

Madson was a cheap gamble, but don't act like Burnett didn't throw 56, 56, and 63 innings his prior 3 years before his arm fell off two weeks after playing for us.

[jshep]

and yet he spent the majority of money last year on Hamilton and one of his two best trade chips on David Freese. 

 

Hey, he got Fernando Salas out of that too!

 

Just too bad he couldn't manage to acquire bullpen help in that deal.

[jshep]

Madson was a cheap gamble, but don't act like Burnett didn't throw 56, 56, and 63 innings his prior 3 years before his arm fell off two weeks after playing for us.

 

...and he finished the 2012 season injured and needed surgery. It's not like he magically got hurt out of nowhere as soon as he put on an Angels' uniform.

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/nationals-journal/wp/2012/10/13/sean-burnett-will-undergo-surgery-could-become-a-free-agent/

 

Nationals reliever Sean Burnett will undergo surgery next week to remove a small bone spur or two in his left elbow after he pitched with symptoms for the second half of the season, according to a person familiar with Burnett’s injury.

 

He usually throws his sinker about 92 mph, and last night he retired lefty pinch-hitter Skip Schumaker, the only batter he faced, throwing 87 and 88 for a key out the sixth.

 

Burnett, a key piece of the Nationals’ bullpen for the past three seasons, also pitched through the injury knowing he will likely become a free agent this offseason.

Edited April 24, 2014 by jshep

[Mark68]

and yet he spent the majority of money last year on Hamilton and one of his two best trade chips on David Freese. 

And yet, there were so many here on AW who were just so opposed to the idea of trading Bourjos for a relief pitcher.

[markb]

Bone spurs are usually a rather minor thing, though.  CJ had the same procedure done that offseason and he's just fine.  To predict that Burnett would just fall apart after such an issue is way outside the realm of reason.  

Edited April 24, 2014 by markb

[Make Angels Great Again]

...and he finished the 2012 season injured and needed surgery. It's not like he magically got hurt out of nowhere as soon as he put on an Angels' uniform.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/nationals-journal/wp/2012/10/13/sean-burnett-will-undergo-surgery-could-become-a-free-agent/

Nationals reliever Sean Burnett will undergo surgery next week to remove a small bone spur or two in his left elbow after he pitched with symptoms for the second half of the season, according to a person familiar with Burnett’s injury.

He usually throws his sinker about 92 mph, and last night he retired lefty pinch-hitter Skip Schumaker, the only batter he faced, throwing 87 and 88 for a key out the sixth.

Burnett, a key piece of the Nationals’ bullpen for the past three seasons, also pitched through the injury knowing he will likely become a free agent this offseason.

Evidently he was healthy enough to pitch through all pre season and 13 regular appearances of sub 1 ERA baseball.

[Inside Pitch]

Bone spurs is usually a rather minor thing, though.  CJ had the same procedure done that offseason and he's just fine.  To predict that Burnett would just fall apart after such an issue is way outside the realm of reason.  

 

That same surgery effectively ended Ken Hill's career. The GM at the time knew he needed surgery when he signed him to a three year deal and was soundly derided for it.  Not sure a GM repeating Bill Bavasi's mistakes is a good thing.

 

Dipoto had already traded away Walden to get Hanson -- the Angels were down one pitcher already.  He then signed a guy who had been lost to TJ surgery and followed that up by signing another guy who had yet to throw a pitch to "round out" the bullpen.

 

So a team with a bullpen problem found itself signing guys off waiver wires because they entered the season down a pitcher they were counting on, and one they had traded away.  

Edited April 24, 2014 by Inside Pitch

[Inside Pitch]

Evidently he was healthy enough to pitch through all pre season and 13 regular appearances of sub 1 ERA baseball.

 

Yeah he made his debut March 13th (18th game), and managed all of 4 appearances in ST.   

Edited April 24, 2014 by Inside Pitch

[markb]

Would also like to point out that this article was written well before the season started.  While it's very early and impossible to draw any conclusions, the early results show that this extra spending was possibly ill-advised.  Not to mention the A's bullpen, while having 1 high paid guy, and 1 mid-pay guy, consists of a bunch of guys making the minimum beyond those two, so they haven't really deviated much from the build-it-with-young-cheap-guys model.  

 

The two highest paid players from the Rays and A's, Bell and Johnson, are making $10M this year, about as much as the rest of the bullpen combined.  The performance of each to start the season:

 

Bell - 5.23 ERA, 1.548 WHIP

Johnson - 6.3 ERA, 2.200 WHIP

 

As of right now, it's more like "Smart Teams Experimented With Spending Money on Relievers and Probably Regret it."  

[stormngt]

Had I known we would get a 3b batting 150 instead I would have been fine trading PB for a reliever.

And yet, there were so many here on AW who were just so opposed to the idea of trading Bourjos for a relief pitcher.

[eligrba]

The organization seems to heading in a better direction now than when Dipoto took over. Regardless of whether he remains or goes, the Angels are in a good place for the long term. I just hope whoever makes the decisions on the next few years will not jeopardize the progress. However painful it is now, it could have been worse without a change in the GM's approach a few years ago.

 

I am frustrated as much as the next person, but the current situation was created by a series of well documented and scrutinized player transactions. I am not sure the current manager and GM have demonstrated the ability to creatively overcome such challenges. I am still in the wait and see how both adjust to the current situation. I just hope that the players will continue to play well, because there is a lot to be excited about despite the bullpen's best efforts.

[Stradling]

I don't blame Dipoto for the Burnett signing, bone spurs are a normal procedure. The guy was coming off of three straight years with 50 plus innings plus. I do blame him for not getting another arm this off season and for thinking that Jepsen was going to turn things around.

[dimitrig]

We had Jordan Walden and we let him go for...?