A theory on David Freese

[UndertheHalo]

And why is that such a outrageous idea? Calhoun and Hamilton could have split the DH roles. You never know what would have happened but that would have been much better than what they have now. Bourjos is not going to turn into a great player but he is already a great defensive player that would be valuable to the team. Unless he is hitting like Mathis his defense would be an asset to the team.

hindsight is always 20/20 we needed a 3b.  David Freese was hurt last year and batted .262, the previous year he was an all star.  Why is it so outrageous to suggest that Bourjous and Freese are kinda similar players ?  We traded from depth in an attempt to fill a hole.  We are not yet a month into the season, it doesnt look like a plan that will pan out right now but maybe in August we'll forget we were arguing about this.  My point is, that the idea behind the trade was not a bad one.  Why do we assume that other better deals were just not explored and left on the table.  We had been trying to trade Bourjous in the past.  Maybe he just is not as valuable as some of you are suggesting. 

[Skankhunt42]

......But But But, He's a World Series MVP so he must be good....

[NrM]

I am probably more of a pro front office guy for the most part. I liked the trade when it happened because I figured we would get a decent offensive player at third base that took a ton of pitches had occasional power and had a good OBP. I really loved parts of Petey's game but I saw him as a spare part in the Angels eyes so I saw why they made the trade. The issue I have with this thread is people down playing what Peter actually was good at or someone equating speed to being good defensively.

At the time, the angels had a starting rotation of Weaver, CJ, Richards and blanton.

 

I was pretty pissed.

[Stradling]

Yea I get that Poozy, but do you honestly think that if Dipoto was offered decent pitching for Peter he wouldn't have taken that deal?

[wopphil]

For me it wasn't about Freese for Bourjos, it was about "throwing in" one of our better prospects (who is now destroying AAA, despite being young for the league).

[NrM]

Yea I get that Poozy, but do you honestly think that if Dipoto was offered decent pitching for Peter he wouldn't have taken that deal?

 

Well I was hopping he'd package Bourjos with someone else for pitching.

 

Something like Bourjos and Kendrick for Zach Lee +. That's just an example though. Not saying they should've done that exact trade.

Edited April 21, 2014 by Poozy

[UndertheHalo]

Stradling, to be clear I was only suggesting that Bourjous plus tool of speed is what primarily contributes to his strong defensive skills.  Obviously he has good instincts as well.  The comment was kind of tongue in cheek.  Im not suggesting that Bourjous was not an asset.  In truth I liked Peter, I just think that we should not over state his value.  

[Skankhunt42]

Would have Dipoto trade Bourjous for good pitching? For sure. The problem is this organization doesn't have an eye for good pitching or good prospects hence why our pitching has been awful the last few of seasons and all of our best prospects are now gone and tearing it up else ware. I wouldn't put it past other organizations that they are keen to the Angels management blunders and jump on the chance to snatch up our prospects at any time. 

Edited April 21, 2014 by TaTaToothie

[mulwin444]

For me it wasn't about Freese for Bourjos, it was about "throwing in" one of our better prospects (who is now destroying AAA, despite being young for the league).

Yeah, I think if the trade was Bourjos/Grichuk for Freese and some High A/AA SP prospect with good upside the trade would have made more sense. However, we are chock full of shitty BP arms so adding Salas just dumb. Its like Dipoto scanned their roster and said to himself," who looks like they disappointed the most last season" and picked him. You hold on for more than Freese/Salas with that trade or you don't make the trade

[UndertheHalo]

Would have Dipoto trade Bourjous for good pitching? For sure. The problem is this organization doesn't have an eye for good pitching or good prospects hence why our pitching has been awful the last few of seasons and all of our best prospects are now gone and tearing it up else ware. I wouldn't put it past other organizations that they are keen to the Angels management blunders and jump on the chance to snatch up our prospects at any time. 

Tony Reagins destroyed our farm system with horrible trades.  We have been unable to replenish due to FA acquisitions.  Suggesting that the club cant scout ....  just crazy negativity in my mind.  Its not like we're the Pirates abjectly failing in the draft for decades.

 

Yeah, I think if the trade was Bourjos/Grichuk for Freese and some High A/AA SP prospect with good upside the trade would have made more sense. However, we are chock full of shitty BP arms so adding Salas just dumb. Its like Dipoto scanned their roster and said to himself," who looks like they disappointed the most last season" and picked him. You hold on for more than Freese/Salas with that trade or you don't make the trade

Yea but what makes you think that any organization would part with a "good" pitching prospect for Peter Bourjos.  Just a wild over valuation of Peter dude.  The guy has proven little other then being a quick plus defender at the MLB level.  Plus he has injury issues.  Personally I could see maybe a proven guy like Kendrick getting something from an asset rich club or maybe Aybar since for some reason he seems to be regarded as decent player (i guess because he's a SS and good ones are not plentiful) 

Edited April 21, 2014 by UndertheHalo

[stormngt]

Health....another false narrative. Bourjos had one season of injury problems. Just one. 2011 he had a good year. 2012 he lost his job to trout...rightfully so but Sosh also made the mistake of platoon in Trumbo Wells, and Abreu. 2013 he was playing great until his injury.

DHing Calhoun is not crazy. PB is a far superior defender. Without Trumbo PB was not our 4th outfielder.

Now one thing we're are not taking into consideration is that during negotiations with trout his agent may have told the front office that he insisted on playing CF. However that is just speculation and that doesn't justify who they traded him for.

Do you really think that Kole Calhoun should have been our every day DH ? I mean thats a plan i suppose. I guess my main thing is that I dont believe Bourjos was going to morph into this great player that can magically stay healthy and reach his promised potential. Peter had several shots here and it never worked out for a multitude of reasons. Staying healthy is a thing in my mind. Peter could not do it. I personally do not think he's going to magically not break down in St. Louis and suddenly finally achieve his baseball nirvana. Freese in some ways is a similar player. We basically swapped problems in my mind. As I said, I don't know about Grichuck...

[stormngt]

A third false narrative. Bourjos did a good job stealing bases in 2011. However he did say the Angels gave him a stop sign in the St Louis media.

That cannot steal a base to save his life in the big leagues.

[UndertheHalo]

Health....another false narrative. Bourjos had one season of injury problems. Just one. 2011 he had a good year. 2012 he lost his job to trout...rightfully so but Sosh also made the mistake of platoon in Trumbo Wells, and Abreu. 2013 he was playing great until his injury.

DHing Calhoun is not crazy. PB is a far superior defender. Without Trumbo PB was not our 4th outfielder.

Now one thing we're are not taking into consideration is that during negotiations with trout his agent may have told the front office that he insisted on playing CF. However that is just speculation and that doesn't justify who they traded him for.

 

was he not also hurt in 2012 ? I could be wrong but I swear it seems that way.  Anyway David Freese has had a "good" season more recently.  You make a good point about Trout and his possible desire to play CF.  He seemed unhappy with not being the CF last year.

[HeavenlyHalos]

Trades like the one for Freese are exactly why this organization is in the position it is in. It isn't so much the trade itself as the philosophy behind it: Trade young, cost-controlled talent for bandaids.

 

And in the same offseason, Dipoto does the exact opposite trade that seems to be working out so far. Odd.

[jsnpritchett]

A third false narrative. Bourjos did a good job stealing bases in 2011. However he did say the Angels gave him a stop sign in the St Louis media.

 

 

He stole 22 bases and was caught 9 times.  That's not good.  Generally speaking, unless you're stealing bases at a 75% or higher rate, you're actually hurting your team in terms of expected runs.

[ScottT]

My theory is he isn't this bad.  In March and April of 2013, he hit .163/.255/.204.   He also had a terrible July.    He even had a .600 OPS month in 2012, when he had a very good year, offensively.

 

He also isn't that good.  Heck, he isn't good.  I still don't like the trade.  I'd rather have Bourjos as a 4th outfielder and see what Jimenez can do.  Randal Grichuk is off to a great start in AAA.  

[ten ocho recon scout]

Good post up above by ALF. Bourjos has his fans here who overrate him, and others who think hes useless. Very few in between.

Truth is bourjos was is a good player. He has an average bat with enough pop and speed to make him slightly above average. His D is off the charts. Thats his value. The injury thing hurt his trade value....he wont be 'hurt' as much in St Lou. There was more going on behind the scenes here than people know....

As far as the trade, it sucked. I was very vocal about it then, and very vocal about it now. That said, I understandthe thinking behind it. And if freese gets back to his averages, I actually dont have a huge problem with it. Bourjos (if not traded) would be splitting time as a 4th OF here. It only sticks out now because of hamilton / calhoun. So if he was here instead of cowgill....it wouldnt have helped us as much as an average freese would. Again, it just stands out because freese has sucked and bourjos is better than cowgill and shuck.

[Inside Pitch]

That cannot steal a base to save his life in the big leagues. 

 

Who has stolen 42 bases at a 76% success rate for his career.    David Freese, 6 SBs Vs, 6 CS lifetime.  Can't be asked to pinch run, can't be used as a defensive replacement....  

[Inside Pitch]

Stradling, to be clear I was only suggesting that Bourjous plus tool of speed is what primarily contributes to his strong defensive skills.  Obviously he has good instincts as well.  The comment was kind of tongue in cheek.  Im not suggesting that Bourjous was not an asset.  In truth I liked Peter, I just think that we should not over state his value.  

 

Problem is defense is almost always underrated -- it's not something that is as easily measured or quantified as offense and as such gets dismissed all too easily.  Freese had a lot of red flags and one truly redeeming quality -- his ability to get on base.   You've mentioned that Bourjos was just fast.... meanwhile Freese was viewed as a legit power hitter....funny thing is, Bourjos has the better career ISO....

 

Maybe people would have appreciated Bourjos more if he had just hit more HRs..   Like Trumbo.

[Tyler]

Bourjos stays having health concerns. If he wasn't so good looking, he wouldn't have such a huge fan club. 

[eligrba]

Just want him to do something different than what he has shown.

 

Might as well ask my dog to drive me home from the bar. They both have about the same possibility.

[mp170.6]

 

Did this come from Mo Vaughn or Bartolo Colon?

[Docwaukee]

Peter Bourjos had no place on this team.  The halos franchise and the best player in baseball gets a decent chunk of his value from being a CFer and frankly wasn't that great of a defensive LFer.  I am sure he would have gotten better, but he even said it affected him.   Pete got the bulk of his value from being an amazing defender yet it happened to be at the same position.  So bye bye Pete. 

 

So, I had zero problem with trading Pete.  In fact, I thought it was a good idea.  Young, club controlled player who plays tremendous CF defense and has some upside with the bat. 

 

I did have issue with Freese but thought maybe the org saw some upside so fine.  Didn't like it but was willing to see what would happen.  What happened was that within a week of seeing him bat it was clear there is a pretty standard book on the dude that completely nullified his power.  He's a subpar defender as billed and appears somewhat distracted as he plays the game.  Like he's constantly trying to think about what he's doing wrong with no idea of how to correct it.  He didn't have an off year last year, they just figured him out.

 

The real kicker of that trade was the totally unnecessary Grichuk for Salas throw in.  Salas is clearly a replacement level dime a dozen pen arm. 

 

less than twenty game into the season, my biggest concern going in is the biggest problem.  A combo of Bourjos and Grichuk couldn't have netted us a kickass reliever?  You couldn't leave the 3b job open to some sort of platoon between Stewart, Lucho, Green et al?  If Bourjos wasn't worth a big league starting pitcher fine, but I have a hard time he wasn't worth a solid reliever. 

[Glen]

Peter Bourjos had no place on this team.  The halos franchise and the best player in baseball gets a decent chunk of his value from being a CFer and frankly wasn't that great of a defensive LFer.  I am sure he would have gotten better, but he even said it affected him.   Pete got the bulk of his value from being an amazing defender yet it happened to be at the same position.  So bye bye Pete. 

 

So, I had zero problem with trading Pete.  In fact, I thought it was a good idea.  Young, club controlled player who plays tremendous CF defense and has some upside with the bat. 

 

I did have issue with Freese but thought maybe the org saw some upside so fine.  Didn't like it but was willing to see what would happen.  What happened was that within a week of seeing him bat it was clear there is a pretty standard book on the dude that completely nullified his power.  He's a subpar defender as billed and appears somewhat distracted as he plays the game.  Like he's constantly trying to think about what he's doing wrong with no idea of how to correct it.  He didn't have an off year last year, they just figured him out.

 

The real kicker of that trade was the totally unnecessary Grichuk for Salas throw in.  Salas is clearly a replacement level dime a dozen pen arm. 

 

less than twenty game into the season, my biggest concern going in is the biggest problem.  A combo of Bourjos and Grichuk couldn't have netted us a kickass reliever?  You couldn't leave the 3b job open to some sort of platoon between Stewart, Lucho, Green et al?  If Bourjos wasn't worth a big league starting pitcher fine, but I have a hard time he wasn't worth a solid reliever. 

 

 

I think that sums it up nicely.  Without Grichuk and Salas it's an OK trade because as you pointed out, Bourjos had no place on the team.  Bourjos and Freese essentially cancel each other out, although you could make the argument that we are now worse at 3B than we were last year, with Freese.  That we had to give up a good prospect in return for a reliever they didn't want is galling.  

[mtangelsfan]

Again, sure I liked Petey, but I think most of us understood that he was odd man out with Trout on the team.  What I found disturbing was that we traded one of our only chips for something that wasn't really a hole and didn't make the hole any better.  

 

Even if we couldn't have gotten a ML level player for him, maybe some decent prospects would have a good return.  Instead we got older and worse defensively when we were crappy last year defensively.