Michael Dunn verdict (how will Florida eff this up?)

[mancini79]

Guy fires 10 shots into a car playing rap music. One kid dies in result. The defense says "It was in self defense". The defendant "thought" he saw a shotgun in the car. When the car was searched, there was no weapon. Jurors now say they have reached a wall in determining a verdict.

[Blarg]

They are Floridians and can't even fill out a ballot. What are your expectations?

[nando714]

Lol

[mtangelsfan]

Let me guess, defendant is white, victim was black.

 

wonder if caliangel has a comment.

[TobiasFunke]

I don't know why black people are born with black skin but they should stop for the sake of health reasons

[Kevin]

Nbc is sad there isn't audio to mess with and race bait this time.

Edited February 15, 2014 by Kevin

[jshep]

Man, this dude pretty much looks EXACTLY like what I would have guessed "guy who shot a gun into a car full of black teenagers who were playing their rap music too loud" would look like.

 

[jshep]

Well they didn't screw it up as badly as they could have!

 

http://www.cnn.com/2014/02/15/justice/florida-loud-music-trial/index.html

 

Jacksonville, Florida (CNN) -- The Florida jury in the case of Michael Dunn found him guilty on four charges, including three for attempted second-degree murder, but they couldn't reach a verdict on the most significant charge -- first-degree murder in the death of Jordan Davis.

[mancini79]

Well they didn't screw it up as badly as they could have!

 

http://www.cnn.com/2014/02/15/justice/florida-loud-music-trial/index.html

 

Jacksonville, Florida (CNN) -- The Florida jury in the case of Michael Dunn found him guilty on four charges, including three for attempted second-degree murder, but they couldn't reach a verdict on the most significant charge -- first-degree murder in the death of Jordan Davis.

 

Yes they did. This guy killed that kid in cold blood. His defense was that the kid "disrespected" him. Therefore he killed the kid in self defense. This would be like a guy cutting me off on the freeway and I flip him the bird. He then shoots me because he falsely claims he saw a gun and gets off on "self defense". It's absurd. It's like the Florida jury was trying to find any excuse to absolve him of first degree. How can he be convicted of attempted murder when he actually succeeded in murdering?!

Edited February 16, 2014 by mancini79

[gotbeer]

Yes they did. This guy killed that kid in cold blood. His defense was that the kid "disrespected" him. Therefore he killed the kid in self defense. This would be like a guy cutting me off on the freeway and I flip him the bird. He then shoots me because he was disrespected and gets off on "self defense". It's absurd. It's like the Florida jury was trying to find any excuse to absolve him of first degree. How can he be convicted of attempted murder when he actually succeeded in murdering?!

 

I think because it was first degree murder.  There are specific things attached to first degree.  Can't pass judgement as a jury on emotions, they tell you exactly what first degree murder is, and then the Jury must determine if the defendant meets that criteria.  I think for first degree, malice with planning is part of the definition.  

[jshep]

Yes they did. This guy killed that kid in cold blood. His defense was that the kid "disrespected" him. Therefore he killed the kid in self defense. This would be like a guy cutting me off on the freeway and I flip him the bird. He then shoots me because he was disrespected and gets off on "self defense". It's absurd. It's like the Florida jury was trying to find any excuse to absolve him of first degree. How can he be convicted of attempted murder when he actually succeeded in murdering?!

 

Oh yeah, they definitely still ****ed up.

 

My confidence here was just so low that I was even pleasantly surprised by them finding him guilty of those attempted murder charges.

 

The fact that that's all they could come to an agreement on is absurd though.

[mtangelsfan]

I think because it was first degree murder.  There are specific things attached to first degree.  Can't pass judgement as a jury on emotions, they tell you exactly what first degree murder is, and then the Jury must determine if the defendant meets that criteria.  I think for first degree, malice with planning is part of the definition.  

 

Bullcrap.  Scary black kids in a car with their "rap music".  That is why this jury wouldn't convict the white guy.

[gotbeer]

Bullcrap.  Scary black kids in a car with their "rap music".  That is why this jury wouldn't convict the white guy.

 

No what you are saying is bullcrap.  

 

first degree.  Murder that is deliberate and premeditated.

Second degree.  non premedidated killing from an assault in which death of the victim was a distinct possibility.

(general definitions, Florida may have more distinct definitions.)

 

A jury does not have the option of deciding if it was first or second degree.  The jury can only decide on the charge that was brought before them, in this case first degree murder.  By the sounds of it, the jury is split on the conditions of first degree murder.  

 

Does it mean the jury is stupid?  No.  It means from the testimony that the jury was able to decide on, that the conditions of first degree murder was not met without reasonable doubt.  

Edited February 16, 2014 by gotbeer

[mtangelsfan]

No what you are saying is bullcrap.  

 

first degree.  Murder that is deliberate and premeditated.

Second degree.  non premedidated killing from an assault in which death of the victim was a distinct possibility.

(general definitions, Florida may have more distinct definitions.)

 

A jury does not have the option of deciding if it was first or second degree.  The jury can only decide on the charge that was brought before them, in this case first degree murder.  By the sounds of it, the jury is split on the conditions of first degree murder.  

 

Does it mean the jury is stupid?  No.  It means from the testimony that the jury was able to decide on, that the conditions of first degree murder was not met without reasonable doubt.  

 

He chose to pull his gun out and put ten bullets in the car.  That is deliberate.  What isn't deliberate about it?   Scary black kids, poor white guy.  You don't think if it was a black guy that pulled the trigger and shot at a car full of white people he wouldn't have been convicted?

[jshep]

Above and beyond what mt is saying, there is also this

 

http://abcnews.go.com/US/michael-dunn-trial-mistrial-declared-murder-charge-loud/story?id=22503778

 

The judge had instructed the jury that they could consider lesser charges, including second degree murder, manslaughter, justifiable homicide or excusable homicide, but they said the could not come to an agreement on any of those charges.

[mancini79]

Above and beyond what mt is saying, there is also this

 

http://abcnews.go.com/US/michael-dunn-trial-mistrial-declared-murder-charge-loud/story?id=22503778

 

I was just about to post the same thing. They absolved Dunn of any murder charge. I'm sorry, but the jury wasn't following the evidence nor the judges instructions. Florida yet again makes a mockery of the judicial process. 

[gotbeer]

Above and beyond what mt is saying, there is also this

 

http://abcnews.go.com/US/michael-dunn-trial-mistrial-declared-murder-charge-loud/story?id=22503778

 

That's a different story than just first degree.  I would agree if they had the choice of lesser charges, and couldn't reach an agreement, then something isn't right.  

[HaloFan85]

The mistrial is only for count #1.  He's still guilty of 3 counts of attempted murder, and shooting into an occupied vehicle.  Even if they found him 'not' guilt of 1st degree murder, the man is still going to spend the rest of his life behind bars.  They said the 3 attempted murder charges alone carry a mandatory 20 year sentence for each attempt.  That's 60 years just for that 1 charge.  From what they said, they will retry the case for 1st degree murder (with the lessers still attached I assume) and hold off sentencing for the other 4 charges until the retrial is completed.  The jury actually got nothing but praise from both sides of this case for deliberating as long as they had and stopping to ask questions and on more than one occassion and even asking to see the unedited version of the surveilance video presented in the courtroom.

 

From what I recall regarding the case, it started when Dunn pulled into the gas station and told the kids to turn down their "loud" music.  There were some words exhanged and then he claimed Davis said "you're going to die, bitch" followed by "this is going down now".  He then claimed he saw the barrel of a shotgun and then Davis got out of the car.  He then said he pulled his gun out of his glove box, released the safety, loaded the gun and shot in fear for his life.  From that, you can see the holes in his story like if Davis had a gun, how did he have that much time to get his gun ready without getting shot by this alledged shotgun.  He then made his defense much worse by fleeing the scene and never calling the police.  He ended up going to a hotel with his girlfriend to eat pizza and drink (more) alcohol.  He apparently was drinking at a wedding earlier in the day.  He claimed he was going to call the police from his "hometown" but never got the chance because they found him the next day after the police received a partial license plate from an eyewitness.  There were lots of other discrepancies in his story that made him look like a complete liar.  His only defense was him saying they had a gun and the cops actually messed up a little by not searching the location until 5 days later.  However, that still doesn't hold much water because he never called the police to report the incident.  His girlfriend even testified he never told her anything about a gun.

 

There were other things that came out during the trial that completely hurt his defense.  The problem with the 1st degree murder charge was "premeditation", which they said is often difficult to prove in such cases where a situation unfolds so quickly.  If I had to guess, all jurors likely agreed to at least 2nd degree but a few stood firm on 1st degree.  I have a feeling he'll end up with at least a 2nd degree conviction after the retrial.  I doubt they deadlock again between 1st and 2nd degree.  They obviously all felt he's guilty of murder to some degree otherwise they wouldn't have found him guilty on the attempted murder charges.  Regardless of what happens in the retrial, the man is going away for the rest of his life with the guilty verdicts on the other charges.

[HaloMagic]

Yeah, exactly what HF85 just said. I'm betting that the people who wouldn't go with the murder 1 charge had not problem with murder 2. But I'm sure there were some (or probably more likely just one juror) who just wouldn't come down to murder 2. Not sure I can blame them either way. Having not sat through the trial or followed the case closely I only have a basic understanding of the events. But I haven't seen anything that would make me agree with a murder 1 charge. It just doesn't seem to have been premeditated.

[sneaky_flute]

Most members of the general population lack the capacity for critical thought and understanding context, so is this really surprising? 

[Vegas Halo Fan]

Yes they did. This guy killed that kid in cold blood. His defense was that the kid "disrespected" him. Therefore he killed the kid in self defense. This would be like a guy cutting me off on the freeway and I flip him the bird. He then shoots me because he falsely claims he saw a gun and gets off on "self defense". It's absurd. It's like the Florida jury was trying to find any excuse to absolve him of first degree. How can he be convicted of attempted murder when he actually succeeded in murdering?!

 

Considering some of the people I grew up with, it doesn't surprise me that Duval County couldn't come up with a jury that could make a rational decision.

[Blarg]

The prosecution screwed up presenting a case for Murder 1 when they knew they didn't have evidence to support it. They were going for a tough on race related hate crime headline for fear of backlash for prosecuting a white guy for only murder 2.

[HaloFan85]

I think they all agree on murder just not to what degree.  You don't find him guilty on 3 attempted murder 2's if you don't agree of at least murder 2 for the kid he killed.

 

They said the 3 attempted murders and the shooting into a vehicle carry a minimum of 75 years.  The guy is going away for life regardless of what happens in the retrial for the murder charge.

 

The family, the attorneys, and legal analysts on CNN (which you know were all against Dunn) gave nothing but praise for the jury.  The mother of Davis even expressed her gratitude to the jury, so I don't get some of the criticism the jury is getting here.

[Tank]

They said the 3 attempted murders and the shooting into a vehicle carry a minimum of 75 years.  The guy is going away for life regardless of what happens in the retrial for the murder.

I think that's an important point that's being overlooked.

[mancini79]

I think they all agree on murder just not to what degree.  You don't find him guilty on 3 attempted murder 2's if you don't agree of at least murder 2 for the kid he killed.

 

They said the 3 attempted murders and the shooting into a vehicle carry a minimum of 75 years.  The guy is going away for life regardless of what happens in the retrial for the murder charge.

 

The family, the attorneys, and legal analysts on CNN (which you know were all against Dunn) gave nothing but praise for the jury.  The mother of Davis even expressed her gratitude to the jury, so I don't get some of the criticism the jury is getting here.

 

Davis' Mother: "We will continue to wait for justice for Jordan"

Davis' Father: "It is not in my nature to not lash out and say inflammatory statements, and I have to hold all that in"

 

His parents have stayed strong through this whole process. They did a great job to accept the verdict publicly and are looking at the positives. But from their remarks, they know their son didn't receive justice. Dunn was not been convicted of murdering their son. Dunn was already facing life in prison with the convicted counts, so why did the jurors spare him from the murder count? Cases like this don't stay in a vacuum. There will be another murder when the defendant is younger and only shoots at 1 person. Now the lawyers can look at this case and feel that attempted murder with 20 yrs in prison is "justice". Since the jury didn't have a backbone, Davis' parents now need to decide if they want to keep this wound open and pursue justice in Jordan's name.