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Sciocia's new strategy at catcher...
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skills
Posted 2008-02-19 12:21 PM (#9420)
Subject: Sciocia's new strategy at catcher...



Just wondering, what's this board's view on who should be our #1. I'm sure this has been beaten to death but I'm new and maybe others have changed their mind.

Personally, I'm on the Napoli bus.

Edited by skills 2008-02-19 12:25 PM
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Fansince82
Posted 2008-02-19 12:25 PM (#9425 - in reply to #9420)
Subject: Re: Sciocia's new strategy at catcher...


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Napoli as well.
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Vernster52
Posted 2008-02-19 12:27 PM (#9427 - in reply to #9420)
Subject: Re: Sciocia's new strategy at catcher...


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Napster.
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Halo
Posted 2008-02-19 12:27 PM (#9429 - in reply to #9420)
Subject: Re: Sciocia's new strategy at catcher...


I'd go with Napoli 2/3 of the time right now. Mathis needs to hit better than .211/.276/.351 to play more.
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skills
Posted 2008-02-19 12:33 PM (#9431 - in reply to #9425)
Subject: Re: Sciocia's new strategy at catcher...



Fansince82 - 2008-02-19 12:25 PM

Napoli as well.


I'm surprised, although an early count, that Nap is preferred. On the OMB, it mostly a Mathis lovefest.
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Blarg
Posted 2008-02-19 12:35 PM (#9434 - in reply to #9431)
Subject: Re: Sciocia's new strategy at catcher...



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skills - 2008-02-19 12:33 PM
Fansince82 - 2008-02-19 12:25 PM Napoli as well.
I'm surprised, although an early count, that Nap is preferred. On the OMB, it mostly a Mathis lovefest.
Is it any wonder people who want to talk sensibly about baseball find themselves here?
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Lifetime
Posted 2008-02-19 12:36 PM (#9435 - in reply to #9420)
Subject: Re: Sciocia's new strategy at catcher...



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Defensively, Mathis is better. Offensively right now, Napoli is better. I think we have to see how they do in ST.
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bloodbrother
Posted 2008-02-19 12:40 PM (#9442 - in reply to #9420)
Subject: Re: Sciocia's new strategy at catcher...




Napoli, because he has a better bat. If Mathis can start hitting better he'd be the #1 starter as he plays superior defense and has a better arm with more accuracy than Napoli. How many runners did Mathis pick off 1B last season?
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ucsbhubs
Posted 2008-02-19 12:40 PM (#9445 - in reply to #9420)
Subject: Re: Sciocia's new strategy at catcher...



81/81
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Adam
Posted 2008-02-19 12:41 PM (#9446 - in reply to #9420)
Subject: Re: Sciocia's new strategy at catcher...



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I would like Mathis to win the job. But to do so he'll have to hit better and more consistently. So now, Napoli. But I'm pulling for Mathis. He's fun to watch behind the plate.
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LightTheHalo
Posted 2008-02-19 12:51 PM (#9457 - in reply to #9420)
Subject: Re: Sciocia's new strategy at catcher...



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I'll say Napoli, but I reserve the right to pull my hair out when nine out of 10 guys are able to steal second off of him.
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Adam
Posted 2008-02-19 12:51 PM (#9459 - in reply to #9420)
Subject: Re: Sciocia's new strategy at catcher...



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Or he takes strike 3 looking 3 times in a game with RISP.
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LightTheHalo
Posted 2008-02-19 12:56 PM (#9464 - in reply to #9420)
Subject: Re: Sciocia's new strategy at catcher...



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There goes more hair...
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Adam
Posted 2008-02-19 12:59 PM (#9470 - in reply to #9420)
Subject: Re: Sciocia's new strategy at catcher...



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If Napoli can become more aggressive with RISP I will be very happy.
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Chilidaviseyez
Posted 2008-02-19 1:02 PM (#9477 - in reply to #9470)
Subject: Re: Sciocia's new strategy at catcher...


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TitanAdam - 2008-02-19 12:59 PM

If Napoli can become more aggressive with RISP I will be very happy.

If only we had a batting coach who would preach that....
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xboom28x
Posted 2008-02-19 1:03 PM (#9481 - in reply to #9420)
Subject: Re: Sciocia's new strategy at catcher...



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I think Mathis needs consistent ab's to hit better... he got that chance when Naps went down last year and did much better. I think the team can afford to give Mathis time to be successful at the plate since the offense should be improved over last season with Hunter and a healthy GA in the lineup.
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bruinman74
Posted 2008-02-19 1:38 PM (#9507 - in reply to #9420)
Subject: Re: Sciocia's new strategy at catcher...



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I'm pulling for Mathis, if he can hit a ball. But I like Naps too.
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Chonito
Posted 2008-02-19 1:49 PM (#9520 - in reply to #9420)
Subject: RE: Sciocia's new strategy at catcher...



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I have to go with the defensive benefit and the  pitcher's overall success when Jeff calls the game. If we hadn't  gotten Torii's bat and hadn't  traded OC giving our defense a hit, it would make it a harder decision for me, but as it stands, I'll take the superior defense which is what the position is all about.
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IEBRUIN
Posted 2008-02-19 1:50 PM (#9522 - in reply to #9459)
Subject: Re: Sciocia's new strategy at catcher...




TitanAdam - 2008-02-19 12:51 PM Or he takes strike 3 looking 3 times in a game with RISP.

Don't remind me.

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skills
Posted 2008-02-19 2:01 PM (#9535 - in reply to #9457)
Subject: Re: Sciocia's new strategy at catcher...



LightTheHalo - 2008-02-19 12:51 PM

I'll say Napoli, but I reserve the right to pull my hair out when nine out of 10 guys are able to steal second off of him.


Not sure where to pull "throwing out at second" stats but I think Nap had a better %. Can someone check?

I love Mathis' 1B pick-off ability but I'm more concerned with the guy going to second. Mathis also has made incredibly athletic plays a C but I've also seen him try to back hand pitches in the dirt that go to the fence when he had time to jump in front of it. In addition, Mathis has pitches fly right by his glove, very dumbfounding for a "defensive" specialist. What am I missing here? I've seen Mathis' make jaw-dropping plays and head scratching ones. Dont want to compare him to Aybar (I scratch my head just about every time with him) but you get my drift.

From what I've seen with Nap is more consistent than Mathis with regards to D. I'd be open to have my view changed if I'm making a mistake here. Again, what am I missing?

When I factor in his bat (despite taking strike 3 down the middle of the plate) displaying power and high OBP, I am a very strongly favoring Napoli.

Edited by skills 2008-02-19 2:04 PM
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Adam
Posted 2008-02-19 2:04 PM (#9539 - in reply to #9420)
Subject: Re: Sciocia's new strategy at catcher...



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Skills, I think you're right. I think the feeling though is that Mathis is easily the more talented defender and consistency will come.
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Lifetime
Posted 2008-02-19 2:04 PM (#9540 - in reply to #9420)
Subject: Re: Sciocia's new strategy at catcher...



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On watching him perform after he had some playing time under his belt last year and having previously seen him play in the minor leagues. He has a stronger more accurate arm, he moves and blocks well behind the dish and he has good footwork. Napoli's arm is not as strong or accurate. He doesn't move all that well but he does do a pretty good job blocking. His footwork is not so good and he is slow getting up from the crouch into the throwing position.

I don't know anyone who thinks Napoli is a better defense catcher compared to Mathis.
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IEBRUIN
Posted 2008-02-19 2:05 PM (#9542 - in reply to #9420)
Subject: Re: Sciocia's new strategy at catcher...




For some reason, i don't remember Mathis throwing out all that many basestealers.  I do remember quite a few PBs, though.
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Coachbulldog
Posted 2008-02-19 2:07 PM (#9547 - in reply to #9420)
Subject: RE: Sciocia's new strategy at catcher...



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Location: Midvale, Utah

Lifetime: Defensively, Mathis is better.
bloodbrother: If Mathis can start hitting better he'd be the #1 starter as he plays superior defense and has a better arm with more accuracy than Napoli.
LightTheHalo: I'll say Napoli, but I reserve the right to pull my hair out when nine out of 10 guys are able to steal second off of him.
Eleven: it confounds me that he starts Napoli, who is absolutely brutal behind the plate.
Chonito: I have to go with the defensive benefit and the pitcher's overall success when Jeff calls the game.

Mathis is better defensively? I don't know where this myth came from but that is what it is, a myth.

In his Major League career, Napoli has caught 1315 innings. During that time, he had a fielding percentage of .987, allowed 3 passed balls, thrown out 26.9% of the runners attempting to steal (32/119), and has a CERA (catcher's ERA) of 4.00. (I am aware that CERA can be a misleading statistic. However, CERA does provide some reference to a pitching staff's performance when throwing to a certain catcher.)

Mathis has caught 605 innings. His career fielding percentage of .987 is identical to Napoli's. In more than half as few of innings Mathis has allowed 6 passed balls and has thrown out 17.5% of the runners attempting to steal (11/63). Mathis has a career CERA 4.28. Defensive statistics are not a complete picture, but Napoli throws out a higher percentage of runners, allows fewer passed balls and, when Napoli is catching, fewer earned runs are scored. Napoli is not brutal behind the plate and there is no evidence that pitchers have more success when Mathis is catching.

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IEBRUIN
Posted 2008-02-19 2:09 PM (#9549 - in reply to #9420)
Subject: Re: Sciocia's new strategy at catcher...




Thanks, Coach. I guess my memory isn't so bad after all.

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Chonito
Posted 2008-02-19 2:12 PM (#9553 - in reply to #9420)
Subject: RE: Sciocia's new strategy at catcher...



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I remember somebody posting a stat on the throwing out 2B part a while back,  and iirc, it was damn close between the two, which surprised me, taking into consideration how all I remember is a whole lot of guys beating Naps' throws. There is no question, on the other hand, of Jeff's success on the pick-offs. I remember 5 off the top of my head where he was successful.
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Chonito
Posted 2008-02-19 2:15 PM (#9560 - in reply to #9420)
Subject: RE: Sciocia's new strategy at catcher...



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Thanks Coach. That clears that discussion up right quick.
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Chilidaviseyez
Posted 2008-02-19 2:17 PM (#9563 - in reply to #9542)
Subject: Re: Sciocia's new strategy at catcher...


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The Angels pitching staff certainly doesn't do any catcher favors in stopping the running game. Being so right hander dominated and without really anyone excelling in holding runners on.
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EE
Posted 2008-02-19 2:18 PM (#9564 - in reply to #9420)
Subject: Re: Sciocia's new strategy at catcher...



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Here's Coachbulldog's blogpost which I thought was right on the mark:
http://angelswinblog.blogspot.com/2008/01/behind-plate-in-2008.html

It's Napoli, by a mile, until Mathis actually does something good.
A 6 game hot stretch while the rest of his MLB time he's hit well under .200 doesn't qualify.
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Adam
Posted 2008-02-19 2:18 PM (#9565 - in reply to #9420)
Subject: Re: Sciocia's new strategy at catcher...



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I think we all see the talent Mathis possesses and give him the benefit of the doubt that he'll sure up the mental mistakes.
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Chilidaviseyez
Posted 2008-02-19 2:19 PM (#9566 - in reply to #9565)
Subject: Re: Sciocia's new strategy at catcher...


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TitanAdam - 2008-02-19 2:18 PM

I think we all see the talent Mathis possesses and give him the benefit of the doubt that he'll sure up the mental mistakes.
Like Santana?
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Coachbulldog
Posted 2008-02-19 2:20 PM (#9568 - in reply to #9560)
Subject: RE: Sciocia's new strategy at catcher...



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Location: Midvale, Utah

Thanks Coach. That clears that discussion up right quick.

 
Please don't misunderstand, I like Jeff Mathis. If my 16 year old daughter had her way, he would be my son-in-law someday. But Mike Napoli's defense has gotten a bad rap. Since I don't believe there is any debate as to which of the two is a better hitter, Napoli should get the nod for the majority of the playing time. Jeff Mathis has a lot of value to the Angels as the backup catcher but, in my view, it is wrong to say he should start over Napoli because of the misconception that he is a superior catcher..

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Adam
Posted 2008-02-19 2:21 PM (#9569 - in reply to #9566)
Subject: Re: Sciocia's new strategy at catcher...



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Chilidaviseyez - 2008-02-19 2:19 PM

TitanAdam - 2008-02-19 2:18 PM

I think we all see the talent Mathis possesses and give him the benefit of the doubt that he'll sure up the mental mistakes.
Like Santana?


Well Santana has regressed...but yeah. I'm not as sold that Santana will be as good as I once was.
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Adam
Posted 2008-02-19 2:26 PM (#9574 - in reply to #9420)
Subject: Re: Sciocia's new strategy at catcher...



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And Napoli just looks like a douchebag
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Lifetime
Posted 2008-02-19 2:33 PM (#9579 - in reply to #9547)
Subject: RE: Sciocia's new strategy at catcher...



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Coachbulldog - 2008-02-19 2:07 PM

Lifetime: Defensively, Mathis is better.
bloodbrother: If Mathis can start hitting better he'd be the #1 starter as he plays superior defense and has a better arm with more accuracy than Napoli.
LightTheHalo: I'll say Napoli, but I reserve the right to pull my hair out when nine out of 10 guys are able to steal second off of him.
Eleven: it confounds me that he starts Napoli, who is absolutely brutal behind the plate.
Chonito: I have to go with the defensive benefit and the pitcher's overall success when Jeff calls the game.

Mathis is better defensively? I don't know where this myth came from but that is what it is, a myth.

In his Major League career, Napoli has caught 1315 innings. During that time, he had a fielding percentage of .987, allowed 3 passed balls, thrown out 26.9% of the runners attempting to steal (32/119), and has a CERA (catcher's ERA) of 4.00. (I am aware that CERA can be a misleading statistic. However, CERA does provide some reference to a pitching staff's performance when throwing to a certain catcher.)

Mathis has caught 605 innings. His career fielding percentage of .987 is identical to Napoli's. In more than half as few of innings Mathis has allowed 6 passed balls and has thrown out 17.5% of the runners attempting to steal (11/63). Mathis has a career CERA 4.28. Defensive statistics are not a complete picture, but Napoli throws out a higher percentage of runners, allows fewer passed balls and, when Napoli is catching, fewer earned runs are scored. Napoli is not brutal behind the plate and there is no evidence that pitchers have more success when Mathis is catching.



You have to be extremely careful in interpreting what those stats tell you. All of those stats can be misleading when not used in context or with the addition of observation. Mathis being a better defender is not a myth.

First, part of Mathis' stats are from his first go round in the majors which as everyone knows was not good. He could not settle down and show the kind of skills Scioscia and everyone else that had been watching him come up through the organization knew he had. Last year when Mathis got another chance to spend some extended time behind the plate in the Majors, he gave us a glimpse of what everyone has been anticipating. His defense was leaps and bounds over what we had seen in his debut. He was moving well, blocking the plate, showing his strong arm and cat like reflexes and working well with the pitchers. The more he played it seemed the better he got. That was so clear that when Napoli was ready to come back everyone was commenting on how tough a decision it was going to be to decide which catcher should get the reps. I don't think we've seen the best of Mathis yet, but we did get a glimpse of what he can do and he is as has been billed, a very good defensive catcher.
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Chonito
Posted 2008-02-19 2:36 PM (#9581 - in reply to #9568)
Subject: RE: Sciocia's new strategy at catcher...



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Coachbulldog - 2008-02-19 2:20 PM

Thanks Coach. That clears that discussion up right quick.


Please don't misunderstand, I like Jeff Mathis. If my 16 year old daughter had her way, he would be my son-in-law someday. But Mike Napoli's defense has gotten a bad rap. Since I don't believe there is any debate as to which of the two is a better hitter, Napoli should get the nod for the majority of the playing time. Jeff Mathis has a lot of value to the Angels as the backup catcher but, in my view, it is wrong to say he should start over Napoli because of the misconception that he is a superior catcher..

No misunderstanding taken, Coach. I'm just glad you cleared that up and am quite delighted about the findings. Not only is it nice to know the facts in this case, but it is rewarding in the sense that Naps is surely the better hitter. I change my whole stance on this now. Thank you for enlightening me! 

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Fansince82
Posted 2008-02-19 2:36 PM (#9582 - in reply to #9420)
Subject: Re: Sciocia's new strategy at catcher...


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ELEVEN - 2008-02-19 1:04 PM

Mathis even if he never hits.
I remember Scioscia telling Bengie Molina not to worry about batting average, and just take care of busines defensively.
With that in mind, it confounds me that he starts Napoli, who is absolutely brutal behind the plate.
We're gonna miss OC defensively already, so we gotta give the pitchers a break and put someone with a mitt back there.

He is not brutal behind the plate. He is average behind the plate and above average at the plate. As Mathis is above average behind the plate and way below average at the plate. That being said I wouldn't mind split time. Keep the catcher position as fresh as possible.
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Coachbulldog
Posted 2008-02-19 3:01 PM (#9596 - in reply to #9579)
Subject: RE: Sciocia's new strategy at catcher...



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Location: Midvale, Utah

Lifetime - 2008-02-19 3:33 PM First, part of Mathis' stats are from his first go round in the majors which as everyone knows was not good. He could not settle down and show the kind of skills Scioscia and everyone else that had been watching him come up through the organization knew he had. Last year when Mathis got another chance to spend some extended time behind the plate in the Majors, he gave us a glimpse of what everyone has been anticipating. His defense was leaps and bounds over what we had seen in his debut. He was moving well, blocking the plate, showing his strong arm and cat like reflexes and working well with the pitchers. The more he played it seemed the better he got. That was so clear that when Napoli was ready to come back everyone was commenting on how tough a decision it was going to be to decide which catcher should get the reps. I don't think we've seen the best of Mathis yet, but we did get a glimpse of what he can do and he is as has been billed, a very good defensive catcher.

I understand the limits of defensive statistics. I also understand the context of the situation must be considered for any statistic to give a true picture. For the sake of discussion, I will not use Mathis stats from his first go around and only use his performance from 2007. His fielding percentage in 2007 was .991. This would rank him a bit better than Napoli's career .987 percentage. But Mathis was only 5/40 in throwing out base runners last year which and that is a full 10% fewer runners than Napoli threw out in 2007 catching the same pitching staff. Regardless of how great Mathis looks behind the plate, results are what matters and the Angels are just as good defensively when Napoli catches. Add this to the fact that Mathis is a punchless hitter and Napoli needs to get the majority of the time.
 

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Lifetime
Posted 2008-02-19 3:17 PM (#9615 - in reply to #9596)
Subject: RE: Sciocia's new strategy at catcher...



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Coachbulldog - 2008-02-19 3:01 PM

Lifetime - 2008-02-19 3:33 PM First, part of Mathis' stats are from his first go round in the majors which as everyone knows was not good. He could not settle down and show the kind of skills Scioscia and everyone else that had been watching him come up through the organization knew he had. Last year when Mathis got another chance to spend some extended time behind the plate in the Majors, he gave us a glimpse of what everyone has been anticipating. His defense was leaps and bounds over what we had seen in his debut. He was moving well, blocking the plate, showing his strong arm and cat like reflexes and working well with the pitchers. The more he played it seemed the better he got. That was so clear that when Napoli was ready to come back everyone was commenting on how tough a decision it was going to be to decide which catcher should get the reps. I don't think we've seen the best of Mathis yet, but we did get a glimpse of what he can do and he is as has been billed, a very good defensive catcher.

I understand the limits of defensive statistics. I also understand the context of the situation must be considered for any statistic to give a true picture. For the sake of discussion, I will not use Mathis stats from his first go around and only use his performance from 2007. His fielding percentage in 2007 was .991. This would rank him a bit better than Napoli's career .987 percentage. But Mathis was only 5/40 in throwing out base runners last year which and that is a full 10% fewer runners than Napoli threw out in 2007 catching the same pitching staff. Regardless of how great Mathis looks behind the plate, results are what matters and the Angels are just as good defensively when Napoli catches. Add this to the fact that Mathis is a punchless hitter and Napoli needs to get the majority of the time.



Edited. It came off as unnecessarily argumentative so I deleted it.

By the way, might want to check your data. I see Mathis had 8 CS in 40 attempts and Napoli had 15 in 49. So Mathis was about .5% worse throwing out runners and was getting better the more he played.

Edited by Lifetime 2008-02-19 3:21 PM
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HaloFan85
Posted 2008-02-19 3:18 PM (#9616 - in reply to #9420)
Subject: Re: Sciocia's new strategy at catcher...




Napoli for sure, when you consider his HR potential (26 HR in 487 AB). Defensively, Mathis has been the better catcher in the minors, but has yet to prove on this level (IMHO), so I'd go with Napoli here as well. Mathis is more athletic and is good at throwing behind runners at 1B, but other than that, Napoli has been better defensively at this level (IMHO). And on a team with as much concern and criticism for lacking "power", I don't see why people would think otherwise. How many times have we really lost a game because of Napoli's defense?
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IEBRUIN
Posted 2008-02-19 3:26 PM (#9620 - in reply to #9615)
Subject: RE: Sciocia's new strategy at catcher...




Lifetime - 2008-02-19 3:17 PM

  . By the way, might want to check your data. I see Mathis had 8 CS in 40 attempts and Napoli had 15 in 49. So Mathis was about .5% worse throwing out runners and was getting better the more he played.

Sorry, but you are both incorrect. Mathis threw out 8 runners in 48 attempts. (.167) while Napoli threw out 15 in 64 attempts (.234) in 2007.

 

 

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Adam
Posted 2008-02-19 3:28 PM (#9623 - in reply to #9420)
Subject: Re: Sciocia's new strategy at catcher...



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What about Budde? Where's his love?
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Lifetime
Posted 2008-02-19 3:32 PM (#9629 - in reply to #9620)
Subject: RE: Sciocia's new strategy at catcher...



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IEBRUIN - 2008-02-19 3:26 PM

Lifetime - 2008-02-19 3:17 PM

. By the way, might want to check your data. I see Mathis had 8 CS in 40 attempts and Napoli had 15 in 49. So Mathis was about .5% worse throwing out runners and was getting better the more he played.

Sorry, but you are both incorrect. Mathis threw out 8 runners in 48 attempts. (.167) while Napoli threw out 15 in 64 attempts (.234) in 2007.



Thanks for the correction. I used the SB number instead of attempts. So the precentage difference was .6% instead of .5%

Edited by Lifetime 2008-02-19 3:33 PM
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IEBRUIN
Posted 2008-02-19 3:33 PM (#9631 - in reply to #9623)
Subject: Re: Sciocia's new strategy at catcher...




TitanAdam - 2008-02-19 3:28 PM What about Budde? Where's his love?

Nailed the only guy who tried to steal off of him.

It's a 3-man battle!

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Adam
Posted 2008-02-19 3:34 PM (#9633 - in reply to #9420)
Subject: Re: Sciocia's new strategy at catcher...



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So we got a guy who threw out 100 percent of potential base stealers, and he's disregarded? What?!?!?
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Adam
Posted 2008-02-19 3:34 PM (#9634 - in reply to #9420)
Subject: Re: Sciocia's new strategy at catcher...



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And he's clutch!
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IEBRUIN
Posted 2008-02-19 3:35 PM (#9636 - in reply to #9420)
Subject: Re: Sciocia's new strategy at catcher...




And Vic thinks he's dreamy.


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Adam
Posted 2008-02-19 3:41 PM (#9639 - in reply to #9420)
Subject: Re: Sciocia's new strategy at catcher...



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Who was it that started the "I'm nutty for Budde" rally cry?
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skills
Posted 2008-02-19 4:11 PM (#9656 - in reply to #9629)
Subject: RE: Sciocia's new strategy at catcher...



Lifetime - 2008-02-19 3:32 PM

IEBRUIN - 2008-02-19 3:26 PM

Lifetime - 2008-02-19 3:17 PM

. By the way, might want to check your data. I see Mathis had 8 CS in 40 attempts and Napoli had 15 in 49. So Mathis was about .5% worse throwing out runners and was getting better the more he played.

Sorry, but you are both incorrect. Mathis threw out 8 runners in 48 attempts. (.167) while Napoli threw out 15 in 64 attempts (.234) in 2007.



Thanks for the correction. I used the SB number instead of attempts. So the precentage difference was .6% instead of .5%


Wouldn't it be 6.7%, not .6%? I think you didnt intend to use a decimal point.
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Angel Oracle
Posted 2008-02-19 4:19 PM (#9666 - in reply to #9420)
Subject: RE: Sciocia's new strategy at catcher...



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Napoli's only true deficiency behind the plate is throwing speed.
But even there, he partly makes up for it with a quick release.

Sure his record in 2007 wasn't as good as Mathis'. That's because Napoli was behind the plate for most of the early games where the team started 6-9.
That was a team wide thing and not on Napoli.

His record when starting is nothing to sneeze at.

He hammers Mathis in OPS.

I'd go with Napoli for about 115 games and Mathis for the rest.

Edited by Angel Oracle 2008-02-19 4:22 PM
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