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Angels Shortstop - "none of the above"
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Chuck Richter
Posted 2008-02-07 8:52 AM (#3286)
Subject: Angels Shortstop - "none of the above"



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Article can be read HERE

By CoachBulldog

I have to say, I'm concerned as I've never been a fan of Izturis as a full-time starter.

Discuss...

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Chonito
Posted 2008-02-07 8:54 AM (#3237 - in reply to #3286)
Subject: Aybar "a concern"



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 Excerpt from Matt Hurst's article from the Press Enterprise:

 

Aybar's Fielding a Concern

One of the largest concerns the Angels had when they traded Gold Glove shortstop Orlando Cabrera was how a young, mostly unproven player would be able to take over at the infield's most important position.

The team is quick to point out that Erick Aybar still has to compete for the starting shortstop job with Maicer Izturis and Brandon Wood in spring training, and Aybar's substandard showing in the Dominican winter league didn't help his cause.

In 35 winter league games, Aybar batted .252 -- an even-lower .209 in the extended postseason. More alarmingly, he committed 19 errors in 35 games.

"He had more errors than we'd like him to have, but we expect that," Reagins said. "Because he's young and it's his style of play. We think that there are areas that he's going to need to improve on, but we think the upside is there." What???

Aybar, 24, had been known as an excellent fielder in the minors. But Reagins said Aybar needs to have more "control" and make "the routine play on a consistent basis."  No duh!!  Now that would be a novel idea!!!

Reagins said he expects young players to have "growing pains." True that one, Tony....he has already been a pain in my :ass:

The Angels aren't actively looking for a proven shortstop.

Reagins described any conversations he's having with other teams as "nothing that is meaningful," and "the likely scenario is this is what we're going (to spring training) with."

Santana Pitches Confidently

Ervin Santana, who will be competing for a spot in the rotation, went 3-1 with a 2.13 ERA in the winter league postseason, but Reagins liked something else a lot more.

"Statistics aside, the confidence factor was important," Reagins said. "He's as confident as I've ever seen him. He had a chance to pitch in some big games for one of the best teams in winter ball in some big situations and he performed."

 

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Eric
Posted 2008-02-07 8:54 AM (#3255 - in reply to #3237)
Subject: RE: Aybar "a concern"



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:help:
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AngelsLongBall
Posted 2008-02-07 8:54 AM (#3256 - in reply to #3237)
Subject: Re: Aybar "a concern"



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Maybe Andy Sheets is available
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WarAngel
Posted 2008-02-07 8:54 AM (#3258 - in reply to #3237)
Subject: RE: Aybar "a concern"



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Calm down people...it's not that big of a deal.  We have 3 players of about equal abilities (currently...that does not include potential) that are competing for this one spot.  I still think Izturis has the inside track, but if both Aybar and Izturis stink it up, then we have Wood ready.

 

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Eric
Posted 2008-02-07 8:54 AM (#3259 - in reply to #3237)
Subject: Re: Aybar "a concern"



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I favor Izturis. I think he's earned the opportunity.
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Adam
Posted 2008-02-07 8:54 AM (#3266 - in reply to #3237)
Subject: Re: Aybar "a concern"



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Izturis for sure. And I hope Mathis goes into ST with some confidence and takes control of the catcher's job.
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Angels2004
Posted 2008-02-07 8:54 AM (#3267 - in reply to #3237)
Subject: Re: Aybar "a concern"



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I always thought that Izturis was as good, if not better than OCab. The Angels will be fine at SS.
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AngelsOwnAll
Posted 2008-02-07 8:54 AM (#3287 - in reply to #3237)
Subject: Re: Aybar "a concern"



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1. Izzy will be our opening day SS.
2. Excellent news about Santana. Very happy to know he did so well.
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AngelsOwnAll
Posted 2008-02-07 8:55 AM (#3288 - in reply to #3286)
Subject: Re: Angels Shortstop - "none of the above"



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Location: The part of the OC that the OC wishes was LAC

Link not working Chuck.



Edited by AngelsOwnAll 2008-02-07 8:56 AM
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JThompson
Posted 2008-02-07 9:09 AM (#3294 - in reply to #3286)
Subject: Re: Angels Shortstop - "none of the above"


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When Izturis has played regularly, he's been one of the best / most clutch offensive contributors on the team, within his limitations - i.e., not having great power. His insertion at the top of the lineup in 2006 was one of the reasons the Angels finished strongly that season. He was terrific in the second half last year, and was the team's best hitter in the playoffs. If he can handle it defensively, I'm all for giving him a shot at SS to begin the season. He's the best #2 lineup slot option the Angels have...
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Chuck Richter
Posted 2008-02-07 9:20 AM (#3303 - in reply to #3288)
Subject: Re: Angels Shortstop - "none of the above"



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AngelsOwnAll - 2008-02-07 8:55 AM

Link not working Chuck.

Fixed!

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JThompson
Posted 2008-02-07 9:40 AM (#3322 - in reply to #3286)
Subject: Re: Angels Shortstop - "none of the above"


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After reading the article, given that Izturis was considered an average to above average SS in the minors, to me it seems premature to be evaluating him defensively based on 65 MLB MLB games, particularly since he was playing multiple positions during the time, and for most of his career. The one year he played predominantly at SS (2004), he put up a respectable .968 fielding pctg in a career high 89 games on what was undoubtedly a second-rate AAA infield surface. I'd give him a hundred games to see how he progresses. He doesn't have Eckstein's hands or transfer, but he has more range and a better arm. There's no doubt in my mind that he has a shot at being as "solid" a SS as Eckstein...but like Eckstein, in the face of his detractors, he'll need the chance to make his case.
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Coolout
Posted 2008-02-07 9:56 AM (#3332 - in reply to #3286)
Subject: Re: Angels Shortstop - "none of the above"




Location: Suburbs
I have to admit Im on the Eric Aybar ???? I cant understand. I know talented, blah, blah, blah.

Izturis' production might have some fooled. Though if healthy and sound Id pick him.

Then my heart pounds Brandon Wood. Because I think of James Loney, Kevin Kouzmanoff, Chris Young, Akinori Iwamura, Josh Fields, Alex Gordon, etc....and these guys were allowed to play, struggled early but overcame. I think this team can afford a BWood growing up in the majors, but that is probably bias taking over judgement.

With no other SS's out there to sort of entertain, my second wish would be give Figgy a try also, but that seems way out of the realm of possibility.

At the end of it all if Izzy takes it over until Wood is taken a chance on, I guess I can live with that.

Edited by Coolout 2008-02-07 9:58 AM
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Chuck Richter
Posted 2008-02-07 9:58 AM (#3336 - in reply to #3286)
Subject: RE: Angels Shortstop - "none of the above"



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Brandon Wood has the best overall defensive skills at the SS position in my opinion. Who knows, maybe a strong spring defensively and on offense wins him the job. We can bat him 9th to take pressure off him offensively.
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Coachbulldog
Posted 2008-02-07 10:08 AM (#3347 - in reply to #3336)
Subject: RE: Angels Shortstop - "none of the above"



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Chuck - 2008-02-07 10:58 AM Brandon Wood has the best overall defensive skills at the SS position in my opinion. Who knows, maybe a strong spring defensively and on offense wins him the job. We can bat him 9th to take pressure off him offensively.
 

Wood is the best option defensively but it would be completely out of character for the Angels to rush a prospect of his status before he is ready at the plate. I like your suggestion though.

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gotbeer
Posted 2008-02-07 10:10 AM (#3350 - in reply to #3336)
Subject: RE: Angels Shortstop - "none of the above"



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You know you are in trouble. When going into spring training, you have 3 people competing for a position, and not one of them is a clear cut favorite to win the job.
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SO CAL HALOS FAN
Posted 2008-02-07 10:11 AM (#3352 - in reply to #3286)
Subject: Re: Angels Shortstop - "none of the above"



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Slide B. Wood into the 9th spot and let him play! Kepp IZZY as the SUPER UTIL I am concerned about his hammy's!

We tend to be a bit over-protective of the kids!

Same with Adenhart, he jumps out in SPT and takes a job he breaks camp I don't care what is said. There is always going to be a learning curve at every stop If they are A level prospects they will be able to make the adjustments to warrant a long career and stay on the BIG CLUB. Bring em' up and play them...
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jwbrown77
Posted 2008-02-07 10:13 AM (#3356 - in reply to #3286)
Subject: Re: Angels Shortstop - "none of the above"



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I'm not concerned about SS at all. We have three guys, one of them I know will step up and contribute. The question might be how much time will it take to find which one it's going to be.
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IEBRUIN
Posted 2008-02-07 10:14 AM (#3358 - in reply to #3350)
Subject: RE: Angels Shortstop - "none of the above"




gotbeer - 2008-02-07 10:10 AM You know you are in trouble. When going into spring training, you have 3 people competing for a position, and not one of them is a clear cut favorite to win the job.

Isn't that the definition of "competing" ?

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JThompson
Posted 2008-02-07 10:15 AM (#3359 - in reply to #3356)
Subject: Re: Angels Shortstop - "none of the above"


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jwbrown77 - 2008-02-07 10:13 AM

I'm not concerned about SS at all. We have three guys, one of them I know will step up and contribute. The question might be how much time will it take to find which one it's going to be.


Agree. This team can hardly be described as "in trouble" at the SS position. The three candidates it has all have good upside.
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gotbeer
Posted 2008-02-07 10:20 AM (#3366 - in reply to #3358)
Subject: RE: Angels Shortstop - "none of the above"



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IEBRUIN - 2008-02-07 10:14 AM

gotbeer - 2008-02-07 10:10 AM You know you are in trouble. When going into spring training, you have 3 people competing for a position, and not one of them is a clear cut favorite to win the job.

Isn't that the definition of "competing" ?



I'd rather have Vlad in RF not competing. Kendrick at 2B, not competing. Heck, OC at SS, not competing. Because these people are far better then what we have/had.

3 people competing for a position with no clear favorite is mediocrity or average at best.
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IEBRUIN
Posted 2008-02-07 10:21 AM (#3367 - in reply to #3286)
Subject: Re: Angels Shortstop - "none of the above"




I guess our SP staff is mediocre since we have 6 competing for 5 jobs.
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gotbeer
Posted 2008-02-07 10:26 AM (#3371 - in reply to #3367)
Subject: Re: Angels Shortstop - "none of the above"



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IEBRUIN - 2008-02-07 10:21 AM

I guess our SP staff is mediocre since we have 6 competing for 5 jobs.


No we have 2 people competing for one position. Unless you think Santana and Saunders is better than Lackey, Escobar, Weaver, and garland.
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IEBRUIN
Posted 2008-02-07 10:31 AM (#3374 - in reply to #3286)
Subject: Re: Angels Shortstop - "none of the above"




And we have 3 competing for 1 position at ss. Not really a huge problem, imo.
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Hi-Def-Halos
Posted 2008-02-07 10:32 AM (#3375 - in reply to #3286)
Subject: Re: Angels Shortstop - "none of the above"



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I think barring a spring training meltdown, they are going to give Aybar a solid look at the beginning of the season, possibly with a platoon situation with Izzy. Part of the equation is that they are looking to keep his trade value up and being buried on the bench wont help. Depending on Wood's progress, they can trade Aybar in July.
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IEBRUIN
Posted 2008-02-07 10:35 AM (#3377 - in reply to #3286)
Subject: Re: Angels Shortstop - "none of the above"




Exactly. Let them battle it out. Someone will emerge as the leader. If not, look elsewhere down the line.
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dochalo
Posted 2008-02-07 11:13 AM (#3429 - in reply to #3286)
Subject: Re: Angels Shortstop - "none of the above"


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I'm all for letting them compete, but winning a job out of spring means jack in terms of how they will perform during the season.

SS is a defensive position unless your SS is a monster offensively. If Wood is the best defender (to me best=consistent and makes all routine plays) then he should get the job regarless of whether he struggles a bit with his offense. Regardless of his K's, he is an XBH machine. Howie doubles, Napoli walks, and Wood hits a 3-run hr.

I actually think Aybar will end up being a better offensive player than Izzy, but if he botches routine plays, the pitching staff is going to go berzerker.
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IEBRUIN
Posted 2008-02-07 11:18 AM (#3435 - in reply to #3286)
Subject: Re: Angels Shortstop - "none of the above"




Did you say "berzerker?" ????

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5D-9X3ooFvo

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dochalo
Posted 2008-02-07 11:28 AM (#3445 - in reply to #3435)
Subject: Re: Angels Shortstop - "none of the above"


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IEBRUIN - 2008-02-07 11:18 AM

Did you say "berzerker?" ????

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5D-9X3ooFvo



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Hi-Def-Halos
Posted 2008-02-07 11:30 AM (#3447 - in reply to #3429)
Subject: Re: Angels Shortstop - "none of the above"



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dochalo - 2008-02-07 11:13 AM

I actually think Aybar will end up being a better offensive player than Izzy.


That's a surprising take. Is there anything you can point to that would help me understand why?
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dochalo
Posted 2008-02-07 11:50 AM (#3459 - in reply to #3447)
Subject: Re: Angels Shortstop - "none of the above"


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Hi-Def-Halos - 2008-02-07 11:30 AM

dochalo - 2008-02-07 11:13 AM

I actually think Aybar will end up being a better offensive player than Izzy.


That's a surprising take. Is there anything you can point to that would help me understand why?


izzy is going to be 27 this year
aybar is going to be 24

Macier had a total of 107 abs as a 23 yo and then 191 as a 24yo. for a total of 298 of which his ops was around the low .600's.

Aybar, at a year younger has 234 abs with similar numbers (although slighlty less)

Overall, Aybar has better minor league numbers (.801ops in 2200abs to izzy's .722ops in 2300abs).

I am not saying that aybar will outperform izzy (offensively) in 2008. I am saying that ultimately aybar has more upside. More raw speed, better XBH ability, more range defensively. I don't pretend to try and guess what is going on in aybar's head so I try to presume that they will both perform similar to their minor league numbers, and aybar has been better in that respect.

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skills
Posted 2008-02-07 12:00 PM (#3465 - in reply to #3352)
Subject: Re: Angels Shortstop - "none of the above"



SO CAL HALOS FAN - 2008-02-07 10:11 AM

Slide B. Wood into the 9th spot and let him play! Kepp IZZY as the SUPER UTIL I am concerned about his hammy's!

We tend to be a bit over-protective of the kids!

Same with Adenhart, he jumps out in SPT and takes a job he breaks camp I don't care what is said. There is always going to be a learning curve at every stop If they are A level prospects they will be able to make the adjustments to warrant a long career and stay on the BIG CLUB. Bring em' up and play them...


I agree on Wood. He should be good enough or far along by now to not not be able to learn at the ML level.

As for Adenhart, his arm is not ready for the work load required of a starting pitcher in the ML. His innings need to be seriously limited, a la Joba, etc. IMO, Weaver was given too much work last year. I'm not saying to not bring Adenhart up, but his pitch count and innings need to be carefully monitored so dont expect 180 innings out of the guy.

Edited by skills 2008-02-07 12:01 PM
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SarGuy33
Posted 2008-02-07 12:16 PM (#3474 - in reply to #3286)
Subject: RE: Angels Shortstop - "none of the above"




Location: Chino Hills, CA
I don't think it matters how many guys are competing for however many positions.

The issue is that none of the 3 potential shortstops has proven (so far at least) to be worthy of a starting job on a contending team. Several years ago, we upgraded the team from Eck to OC because we felt the difference between a "good" SS and a "great" SS would make a significant difference at a critcal position. For some reason, we now have gone from "great" to "unproven" at that same critical spot. Are we supposed to believe that the SS position is no longer critically important? Is at least one of these guys ready to be "great"?

I have serious doubts. Not bashing Garland at all, just wish we had a more solid game plan for replacing a great SS in OC

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Catwhoshatinthehat
Posted 2008-02-07 12:19 PM (#3478 - in reply to #3286)
Subject: Re: Angels Shortstop - "none of the above"


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There's no reason to rush Adenhart barring major injuries. He spent last year in AA and needs time in AAA. You bring him up now when you don't need him and you start his ML service.

As far as Wood goes I've been all for giving him the job and putting him in the 8 or 9 slot.
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Eric
Posted 2008-02-07 12:35 PM (#3492 - in reply to #3286)
Subject: RE: Angels Shortstop - "none of the above"



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As far as Wood goes I've been all for giving him the job and putting him in the 8 or 9 slot

Yep. I could live with solid defense and .240 15-20 hrs out of the 8th or 9th spot. 

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Eric
Posted 2008-02-07 12:54 PM (#3496 - in reply to #3286)
Subject: Re: Angels Shortstop - "none of the above"



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Something in favor of Izturis. He's entering his age 27 season. The supposed "break out" year.
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California Cajun
Posted 2008-02-07 1:07 PM (#3500 - in reply to #3286)
Subject: RE: Angels Shortstop - "none of the above"


Chuck - 2008-02-07 10:52 AM

Article can be read HERE

By CoachBulldog

I have to say, I'm concerned as I've never been a fan of Izturis as a full-time starter.

Discuss...



I think Brandon Wood will be the SS in 2009 (if he can't settle into the position during 2008) and the 3b will be either Figgins or a new player, so I don't see either Izturis or Aybar in the long-term picture as Angel regulars. Until Wood is ready, I see SS as Aybar's to lose. I don't think Izturis or Aybar will be given the opportunity to play one position regularly enough to gain the fans' confidence.
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acro2008
Posted 2008-02-07 5:51 PM (#3663 - in reply to #3500)
Subject: RE: Angels Shortstop - "none of the above"


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I don't know if anyone saw this but I believe it was in the first game of the Caribbean WS round robin. A ball was hit up the middle to the second base side maybe 3-4 feet over on thje second base side where Belliard was playing more up the middle than Aybar was by a noticable amount. Aybar has some very good range and tried to show it by diving in front of Belliard who was literally waiting for the ground ball. The diving Aybar knocked the ball down with his glove but he wasn't able to get a handle on the ball. It was all me and zero team type of defensive play and I don't recall ever seeing a defensive play where it was that obvious that the player was just being a hot dog at the expense of the team.

I started watching him in winter ball in 2005 and really thought he'd transform into a very very good SS but now I am not so sure. He was awful this winter and his tendency to throw balls away and botch the easier plays hasn't even come close to improving. All the aspects of the game that requuire discipline, Aybar is well below average.

Hopefully, the veterans will give him an earful, maybe they have and he simply still has that immature demeanor that lends itself to redundant mistakes. If he doesn't mature, he is going no place. Hopefully Sciosia knows what to say to him. I don't like that Scioscia implied that he was one of the favorites for the SS position because he surely hasn't earned that.

Regardless, I believe Scioscia will platoon Aybar and Izzy at SS. He's probably having wet dreams about another platoon. I have a feeling Scioscia wants to give him the responsiblity, although he hasn't earned it, in the hopes a promotion will help him grow up. I can't see any other reason why he would even be considered.

I love Izzy but I doubt his hammys hold up. I hope I am wrong. If Izzy's hammys don't hold up and Aybar doesn't mature, I'm betting Sciosca will be forced to sit him and play Wood.

Edited by acro2008 2008-02-07 5:52 PM
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gotbeer
Posted 2008-02-07 6:09 PM (#3669 - in reply to #3663)
Subject: RE: Angels Shortstop - "none of the above"



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acro2008 - 2008-02-07 5:51 PM

Hopefully, the veterans will give him an earful, maybe they have and he simply still has that immature demeanor that lends itself to redundant mistakes.


What veterans? We have no veteran infielders left. And if we are left with Chone telling Aybar about defense, we are in a load of trouble.
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bloodbrother
Posted 2008-02-07 6:11 PM (#3671 - in reply to #3286)
Subject: Re: Angels Shortstop - "none of the above"




Aybar has looked putrid at the ML level but you can't ignore what he did in the minors. He was pretty solid there. Maybe he's just a late bloomer like Chuck says about certain people. The problem now is, he might be a year or 2 away still
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acro2008
Posted 2008-02-08 8:33 AM (#3777 - in reply to #3669)
Subject: RE: Angels Shortstop - "none of the above"


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gotbeer - 2008-02-07 6:09 PM

acro2008 - 2008-02-07 5:51 PM

Hopefully, the veterans will give him an earful, maybe they have and he simply still has that immature demeanor that lends itself to redundant mistakes.


What veterans? We have no veteran infielders left. And if we are left with Chone telling Aybar about defense, we are in a load of trouble.


Well, what I am refferring to is the fact that there are veterans on the Angels and on the Tigres team for that matter that may and maybe should need to speak to him about his maturity level. I would hope somebody speaks to him about his dumb mistakes on the base paths, terrible plate discipline, along with being a hot dog with the glove. The problem is the Angels don't like to keep a player from being aggressive, which I like but a player shouldn't be playing stupid. Maybe he has been spoken to and simply needs somebody to be more stern. He has shown in a couple at bats that he has what it takes to concentrate on plate discipline. Last years late inning victory in Yankee stadium when Aybar drew a walk, was a good example.

The guy has talent, it doesn't need to be an infielder that tells him. His issue is in his head. I am joping one of his DR buddies on Tigres ripped him a new one. Belliard looked a bit upset, so hopefully something was said in the dugout. If this was a one time thing, it probably wouldn't matter but Aybar is clearly an all around undisciplined player and I don't see that changing unless somebody he respects really lays into him.

As a sidenote, I also believe that Aybar is even less disciplined when he plays in the DR, so we may not have as much too worry about but the guy's discipline is still a major concern.

Edited by acro2008 2008-02-08 8:37 AM
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acro2008
Posted 2008-02-08 8:56 AM (#3820 - in reply to #3671)
Subject: Re: Angels Shortstop - "none of the above"


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bloodbrother - 2008-02-07 6:11 PM

Aybar has looked putrid at the ML level but you can't ignore what he did in the minors. He was pretty solid there. Maybe he's just a late bloomer like Chuck says about certain people. The problem now is, he might be a year or 2 away still


Sure, he has been a good mL player but his mL stats like walk to strike out ratio, caught stealing ratio and amount of fielding errors have kept him from being a higher rated prospect. I think he was touted so high because his eventual maturity was assumed like it is with most prospects. I have seen him play for Tigres de Licey as a starting SS in 2005, 2006 and 2007 and his numbers have declined each year. That just isn't a good sign. I am attributing that to being immature and undisciplined. I hope he blossoms but I agree, it may be a couple more years.
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